Am I doing the right thing with liveaboard??

[fasteddy13]

Hi All..
Am new to joining the forum but have spent many a pleaseant evening here reading the tales and wisdoms of the members, learnt a lot doing that too..
I live in the north of Scotland, have a 12' sailing dinghy which I have spent very many hours enjoying on Loch Shin these past couple of years. Now, my circumstances have changed, my son has grown up and left home, only seems like yesterday I was changing his nappies and burping him.. This means that I have gone from single parent to, well, just single I guess..

Long story short, I have 99% decided to buy a bigger boat to have a liveaboard life. I love the freedom to roam and explore the waters of this country, kinda nuts about fishing too..
BUT.. Have been researching as much as I can about the liveaboard life, and some doubts are starting to creep in.. I am not daunted by any of the practicalities of boat life, I think I have all the skills, and enough enthusiasm to continually learn the ones I dont have as I go along, but the more I look at the liveaboard life, the more it seems to resemble land life, without the land.. By that I mean huge amounts of red tape, taxes, insurance, regulations, no-go areas, prejudice against liveaboards, or simply requiring lots of cash to make it all feasible to do..

After trying to navigate my way through all this lot, I am now wondering if there would be any sense of freedom left after I have complied with, paid taxes on, and generally rolled myself into a ball of red tape.. It is starting to look like a slightly more committed form of expensive holiday, with all the bureaucracy of getting a mortgage, car insurance and adopting a white rhino..

Am I seeing this all wrong?

 

[Graham376]

Depends on how you want to live aboard and you don't say whether still working or not. If a marina dweller, either permanent place or visiting one each night then yes, it is expensive. Living aboard in UK has virtually no red tape and it's possible to anchor in many places at no cost or, rent a mooring which is far cheaper than a marina berth. Insurance has to be paid for, as well as annual maintenance but that also applies to houses.

Living aboard in Europe has become more difficult due to 90/180 rule but, just like UK, can vary wildly in price. My mooring cost over 15 years, has cost about 50% of being based in a marina for one year! Obviously more red tape but often sounds worse than it is - apart from Greece it would appear.

 

[Tranona]

Welcome to the forum.

First thing to get clear there is no "one way" to liveaboard, but before you start to work out whether you can find a way of doing it that suits you, you need to think about some basic parameters. The first is that boats are in general, particularly if you want to move around, not designed for living aboard. They are cramped, move about a lot, deteriorate rapidly because of the elements that surround them and require constant maintenance and expenditure. They can be damp, cold and depressing. If you want to have any reasonable access to the rest of the world - work shopping, socialising etc then the choices of where to locate your boat are both limited and often expensive. The British climate and coastline are not conducive to year round living on a boat. Much of the coast is hostile, particularly in winter which means sheltered locations are limited and because demand in the better ones exceeds supply, can be costly. Most sheltered locations, marinas harbours docksides etc are not designated for residential use so you have no rights and are dependent on goodwill to be able to use them for living aboard your boat. This is made more difficult as the size of boat that most people would consider comfortable for living on are the type where shortage of supply and therefore cost are the highest (and have highest maintenance cost).

Having got those issues out of the way, there is in fact very little red tape involved in owning a boat to live aboard. Unless you venture into the regulated inland waterways there is no licence or inspection required, insurance (at least 3rd party) is cheap. Other costs are mainly related to parking the boat - moorings, harbour dues. You are right that liveaboards sometimes have difficulties in interfacing with both the state and other sections of the community, but no more so than others who choose to live in other than the conventional bricks and mortar way.

Having said all that many people do find a way of working with the limitations and live on their boat, but there is not a silver bullet that says "this is how to do it". Some do it in stages by buying a relatively modest boat they can live aboard for shorter periods, for example a long summer cruise from May to October to get experience and see if they enjoy it. Next stage might be buying a bigger boat and extending the time spent aboard for example by cruising in the summer and taking a winter berth in a marina. Of course this assumes that you have the finances to support you and are not dependent on land based work to live. Others get into a financial position such that they can take off for an extended period, often heading for warmer climes, although for all sorts of reasons the barriers to doing this are increasing. What is really difficult to make work is seeing a boat as a cheap alternative to a land based home while needing land based work to live.

There are of course upsides to consider but these tend to be individual and those that benefit most seem to the ones that follow this way of life for positive reasons rather than to escape from an existing situation.

 

[fasteddy13]

Hi Graham..
Thanks for the info.. I am starting to think that life afloat has to be planned and pointed in a quite specific direction. From what I have read, liveaboard is a minefield that needs navigating through in case you sail straight into fees, licences, restrictions etc.. Spent hours today just trying to work out if I could go through the Caledonian canal, still cant work out all the costs and requirements, youtube vid I watched showed a couple paying £330 for a trip through it, still cant work out what they actually paid for..
Seems going through canals have a different licence requirement to rivers, and to coasts, and that changes when in Scotland or England/Wales. Some parts of the UK seem fine with liveaboards, other parts can be quite hostile. BW seem to have turned into a money machine and mostly have their eyes turned towards the cash, that may be unfair but read a lot about some very unhappy sailers falling foul of them..
I do still work, although this will be mostly done on savings and my work will be more limited if I start liveaboard life, but should be able to provide a minimal income as I go along, I certainly dont have loads of cash to throw at this, which is what a fair amount of folk out there seem to do..
Had anticipated my learning curve to involve sailing, maintenance, tides, currents etc.. But have spent way more hours trying to work out all the different requirements in each driection I investigate..
sigh.. perhaps I should just get a goldfish..

 

[fasteddy13]

Thank you Tranona.. good and sensible advice.. So, as I want to do this, or at least start doing this on a budget, keep clear of the inland waterways and keep to the coast. I hear what you say about work (still can do some onboard), and interacting with the state (no thanks). I have no problem with maintenance, I am an engineer, computer tech and cabinet maker, have no problem working out which end of a hammer to hold..
Most of my sailing has been on inland Lochs, some big ones and in some interesting weather, but I have no doubt that the ocean is going to be a steep learning curve and I think staying near the coastline is going to be sensible to kick off with..
Would love to try the western isles here in Scotland, but that seems like it would be better tackled with more experience than I have right now.. Any suggestions for an area to cut my teeth on? Am not wedded to any part of the UK and although the Scottish isles are a future target, I think a gentler challenge would suit while I am finding my sea legs.. Have my eye on a couple of boats, 25'-29' bilge keels so I can perch it on the sand/mud in low tides, wont win any races but probably best to cut my teeth on..

 

[fasteddy13]

Oh.. and decent fishing would be very nice..

 

[Kelpie]

The fee you pay to the Caley Canal is there to help support the maintenance and operation of the facility. It might look like a ditch but canals, especially of that size, have enormous ongoing costs. The staff required to keep everything running, and to operate locks where necessary, are not doing it for free. I don't think the cost is unreasonable. Try going around the top and then add up your fuel, put a price on your own time, wear and tear on the boat, and any harbour dues along the way, and the canal suddenly doesn't seem that bad.

If you want to get away from it all, the NW of Scotland is about as good as it gets. Loads of little nooks and crannies where you can still throw down a mooring without getting in anybody's way. Don't be scared of sailing on the sea, IMHO it's better charted and with way more sea room and almost infinite options you can adjust your plans according to the conditions.
Try hopping down the east side of the Uists, there's a good anchorage about every five miles, you'll hardly meet a soul if you don't want to. Just be cautious with the weather, know how to use your anchor, and follow the pilot books. Antares charts are also excellent.

Don't over-estimate the advantages of being able to dry out. My previous boat had legs and I always intended to use these whilst cruising. In practise whilst they were great for doing things like antifouling, I never once used them during a cruise. It just takes way too much planning. You need to find a spot which is suitable for the tidal range and conditions that you expect, then check it out at low tide, then actually get the boat in position and beached. Basically you end up staying in the same place for 24hrs+, half of which you can't use your loo. Leaving and returning from the boat is a PITA too. Walk ashore at low tide and you'll not have your dinghy for when the tide returns. Dinghy ashore at high tide and you'll have to cart it back down the beach again. It's fine for maintenance purposes but if you just want to stop somewhere for the night, it's much easier to drop anchor and blow up the dinghy.

 

[Tranona]

As I suggested at the start, the UK is not a good place for liveaboard, particularly on a low budget. There are pros and cons of the regions that make some better than others. Where you are is probably near the bottom of the list because of the weather and short sailing "season". Although there are many anchorages that are free, most are remote and restricted by the weather. South, South West and East Coast have the advantage of better weather and possibilities of sailing south. While there are many rivers, estuaries, inlets etc for anchoring, most mooring is controlled and marinas expensive. However, summer cruising or living on a mooring and winter in a marina or alongside is feasible.

As to boats. 26' is barest minimum - marginally above camping - I lived on my 26' for a year in my younger days, but only weekdays, weekend at home. Just about bearable as I was in a boatyard with electricity and a toilet - and walking distance to work. Go up to 30' or so and you are in a different league - this Westerly for example harbouryachts.co.uk/Boat-Details/SEKP%201634/Westerly%20Berwick/ Top price because it is well above average condition. Or for a bit more moneyMoody - 33 MK II - FOR SALE - Harbour Yachts Poole I would be happy even in my dotage as a single person, living on either of these, but particularly the Moody.
Bilge keels are useful for a mooring that dries, but really not viable to assume that you can just "perch it on sand/mud at low tide". Places you can actually do this are very limited. Remember the tide goes up and down twice a day and sand is VERY hard. OK for the odd night up a muddy creek or on a carefully surveyed sandy bottom on a nice calm day. Otherwise bilge keels are a good choice because many of the boats like the Westerly have them and it does mean you can dry out to antifoul and you don't need a cradle if you haul out.

 

[fasteddy13]

Hi Kelpie..
My postman has just been telling me similar about west Scotland, he spent a few years doing liveaboard and says it was the best time of his life and he never got to explore more than a fraction of what was there. He also reckons the fishing was the best he had ever experienced. Also reckons that with a bit of planning, the scottish winter is not as much of a problem as it would seem. He suggests spending the summer exploring and finding good mooring spots for the weather, he also echoed your comments about getting good at achoring in storms and so have been boning up on drogues, sea anchors and twin anchoring.
Agree with every word you say about canals and maintenance, I have no argument with fees and licences being part of travelling on them, I just do not want that sort of life. Big part of my reason for doing this is to get away from the endless treadmill of red tape and regulation that has become normalized, dont get me going, will turn into a rant..
Hi Tranona..
Absolutely agree, 30' is now the target and that Westerly Berwick looks really nice.. Though I have done a lot of camping, hiked around europe and am no stranger to camping life, a 30 footer is a big step up..!
Bilge keel is a plus for me for anti fouling and any quick below water-line maintenance needed, I do get that places are limited to do this but just having the option seems sensible..
Have been drawing up a list of things to do, get ready and to learn, is now becoming a long list..
Have to say, you guys have managed, quite quickly, to dispell my creeping doubts about liveaboard. I fully get that there are drawbacks, but I am not daunted by anything I have heard so far. My concern was that having pointed myself in this direction, I wanted to be sure that the sort of life I had imagined would be available. Think I made the big mistake of looking at canals and inland waters as part of this, the degree of regulation, fees, licencing etc is what rattled me.
Big learning curve ahead, which is also the attraction for me, I love a challenge and if I can utilize the skills I have into becoming reasonably self sufficient at maintaining my vessel, then its all good..
Thanks for the tip on Antares chartsKelpie, that looks exactly what I am after..
Am still at the stage of ridding myself of my worldly goods, really looking forward to the transition and getting out onto the water. Hope you guys are up to giving me a bit of advice when I go looking for my vessel, wont be long now..!

 

[James L]

I love the idea of a liveaboard but I think you are expecting too much from it.
As I see it you want to have a simpler life, being a liveaboard would definitely be more complex. You never need to worry about lifting your house to paint underneath or where to move it to etc etc.
If you have the funds then buy a boat in the 25-29 foot range, but don't try to liveaboard. Spend as long as you can sailing and build up your time. Go a few days to start and see what you feel like. You might immediately spend the whole summer on board and have no wish to return home.
More likely you will enjoy spending a week or 2 onboard and then returning home.
In a year or 2 you will have a good idea of what living aboard would involve and that you would need a bigger boat.

 

[Offshore57]

We liveaboard but on a motorboat so a lot different I suppose in terms of space, and we both work, currently from home, so we have an income to be able to berth in a marina with associated facilities. There are a number of liveaboards here, some sail some motor and it certainly made a difference during all the lockdowns to see familiar faces wandering by now and then. We wouldn't do it on a sailing boat, basically because we have never sailed and prefer the dark side. True, marinas are not cheap berthing but there are smaller boatyards, even down here in the south, that are a lot cheaper and still have basic facilities. For us it has been and continues to be brilliant and far better than the rented house added to the mooring fees of our previous boat.

 

[fasteddy13]

Mmmm.. Not really wanting to get into too much of a discussion of why I am doing this, it is an absolutely subjective matter and I doubt there would be any sort of consensus on any of the reasoning behind anyones choices.
I will say that you are quite wrong James, to think this is a desire for a simpler life, it is absolutely not. If I wanted a simpler life, I would be heading in a very different direction. This is far less about moving away from a lifestyle, and all about moving into one.
I am not a complete novice to either sailing, camping, staying on boats (30 years of boating holidays) and I will have an income. This is much more about making the transition, and trying to carefully point myself in a direction that works for me and trying to anticipate the pitfalls before I encounter them, reckon that is the engineer in me.. I could read, watch youtube and generally bone up on all the aspects of live aboard, but I have always believed it is better to talk to those that have done it, they are the experts and their wisdom is golden. I have learnt a lot in just 24 hours with you guys, keep it coming..! Off to Helmsdale harbour today to meet a couple that are mooring there and that have done this, looking forward to seeing how they are getting on..

 

[Kelpie]

have been boning up on drogues, sea anchors and twin anchoring.

It does no harm to arm yourself with this knowledge. A copy of Heavy Weather Sailing will keep you entertained for a few hours.
But don't worry about it too much. if you're sailing around e.g. the Minch then you'l never be more than ~4hrs away from a good bolthole. So unless you totally disregard weather forecasts there is absolutely no need to get caught out in the kind of conditions where you'd be deploying a drogue or para-anchor. Different story if you're crossing a major body of water where you can't just run for cover in a nearby anchorage.

 

[grumpygit]

Mmmm.. Not really wanting to get into too much of a discussion of why I am doing this, it is an absolutely subjective matter and I doubt there would be any sort of consensus on any of the reasoning behind anyones choices.
I will say that you are quite wrong James, to think this is a desire for a simpler life, it is absolutely not. If I wanted a simpler life, I would be heading in a very different direction. This is far less about moving away from a lifestyle, and all about moving into one.
I am not a complete novice to either sailing, camping, staying on boats (30 years of boating holidays) and I will have an income. This is much more about making the transition, and trying to carefully point myself in a direction that works for me and trying to anticipate the pitfalls before I encounter them, reckon that is the engineer in me.. I could read, watch youtube and generally bone up on all the aspects of live aboard, but I have always believed it is better to talk to those that have done it, they are the experts and their wisdom is golden. I have learnt a lot in just 24 hours with you guys, keep it coming..! Off to Helmsdale harbour today to meet a couple that are mooring there and that have done this, looking forward to seeing how they are getting on..

It all pie in the sky or how long is a piece of string . If your of a cautious mind and ask too many questions you may well be put off.
In my mind there is nothing better than following ones gut instinct . . . . Better to try and fail rather than not try at all
There is no rule book, we are all different in a hundred ways or more.
You read as though you are a pragmatic and mature type of person so just go on and take the plunge. If your not hurting anybody and you are not going to go bankrupt why the hell not follow your whims or dreams?
Regrets are for coffins!

 

[fasteddy13]

The collection of books on my 'to read' list is now looking like a full on library, thank goodness for ebooks or I would sink the vessel with them..!
Have made and used a little sea anchor for my little dinghy on Loch Shin and around the Moray Firth, great little device for keeping the boat pointed and trolling baits slowly..
Biggest problem I anticipate at the moment is getting everything done and making the move well before next winter, would like a decent amount of time to work on everything while the better weather is here, although looking out the window right now..

Ah, Grumpygit (nice handle), you are thinking exactly the way I do.. Although not sure the word 'plunge' helps.. But 100% agree, we are all different in so many ways.. Bit difficult to sum up all my reasoning and desires on this but I guess the word 'freedom' will do. If all the effort and work to make this happen results in a sense of freedom, then worth every bit of it..

 

[grumpygit]

Ah, Grumpygit (nice handle), you are thinking exactly the way I do.. Although not sure the word 'plunge' helps.. But 100% agree, we are all different in so many ways.. Bit difficult to sum up all my reasoning and desires on this but I guess the word 'freedom' will do. If all the effort and work to make this happen results in a sense of freedom, then worth every bit of it..

Believe me, plunge is a lot better word than a sinking feeling
All I can say is that if it is freedom that's your common denominator then this is not willingly given , you have to grasp it with both hands and take.
As the cliché goes . . you only have one shot of life as this one is not a rehearsal'

 

[phantomlady]

Have a look at Southerly yachts...an elderly 95, or 100 can be had quite cheaply (we bought ours for £15K four years ago) loads of room for one to liveaboard comfortably and will take the ground anywhere there are no rocks!

 

[V1701]

Have a look at Sadlers (26/29/32/34), they have double skinned hulls so condensation in the colder months will be less of an issue. They also seem to me to not be affected as much as some other makes by the recent shift to it being very much a seller's market now everone wants stuff to do at home. Etaps as well but not so many for sale. If you're thinking of maybe staying in the north I'd also look at motor sailers with a wheelhouse, Colvic Watson, e.g. (26-34ft), the wheelhouse is great for UK weather but they generally don't sail as well. LM's are also worth a look.

Best of luck with your plans, I've been living aboard FT for 11 years (in a UK marina cos I still have to work and work is very close to the marina), I wouldn't go back...

 

[fasteddy13]

Hey Phantomlady.. They do look very nice, I like the old article I read about them still able to be navigable after they have sunk..!! Thank you for the suggestion, it has gone near the top of my list..!

Hi V1701, like the look of the Sadlers, seem to come in a few flavours of keels too.. I do like the idea of a wheelhouse, spent many an interesting day in my dinghy wishing I had one, the scottish weather can change in an eyeblink, and I dont think it pays much attention to the forecast..
When you say 'dont sail well', what aspects are you thinking of? Last time I went out to sea on a friends boat, she had a folding cover that could be mostly stowed away for better days.. Was better than just using my hat..

 

[Gerry]

Living aboard is exactly that, not camping aboard. Whatever boat you end up with make it into your home. A place that you are comfortable in and want to spend time in. We are still happily living on our boat after 22 years full time, and have no intention to stop yet. After over a decade of cruising long distances we are now happily ensconced up a beautiful river. We are in a marina, old age , and other circumstances have curtailed the voyaging for now. BUT we still love our liveaboard life. We were fortunate to start off with the boat we still have, and at 40 feet she is more than comfortable for our needs. Being based in the UK gives different priorities. First is the need for a dry heat throughout the winter months. We have a log burner which keeps the boat warm and dry and keeps almost all condensation at bay. The ability to do all your own repairs is priceless and even more important is the ability to relish doing these chores-they will never end! Red tape never disappears completely but we view in as just an occasional hurdle to be overcome. No different to living on land really. If you like a crystal glass to drink your whiskey out of, have them on the boat. If you like a feather pillow have one on the boat. Over the years the people we have met who are still living aboard have made their boats into comfortable homes that happen to be on the water and are very moveable!
Good luck. Go for it. you can always go back to land if it's not for you. If you don't try you'll never know....