Advice on Bristol Channel boating

[Manic76]

Hi all,

We are currently contemplating buying a bigger yacht and mooring it in Cardiff Bay. However we are slightly concerned that we are not experienced enough and that leisurely weekend cruising may not be that viable?

In terms of experience, I have day skipper, radio etc qualifications and have sailed extensively on the south and east coasts, but only as crew and not since around 2010 so navigation skills are a bit/very rusty). We currently have a yacht on Windermere where those skills are not being tested...

Usage wise, sadly I still have to work, so primary use would be at weekend and the occasional week away.

So the question is, am I being overly cautious? Would a few trips out as crew be a good starting point to ensure we are happy with the area and the challenges it can throw up? And how easy are weekend jaunts to interesting places (with pubs!)?

Thanks in advance for any thoughts...

 

[sarabande]

What's the size and configuration of the boat ? Draught, keels, air height, length, displacement etc.

 

[Manic76]

Likely to be 33 - 35 ft, I am favouring bilge over fin. So draft around 3ft?

 

[sarabande]

For Bristol Channelyou will be better off with twin bilge keels as it allows you to creep into harbours like Instow, Minehead, Ilfracombe, etc. and dry out. Watchet also a possibility.

Have a look at pics of e.g. Ilfracombe and see what the harbour looks like at low tide.

With that sort of length you should be able to overcome the tidal streams except in the strongest places (which you will be avoiding anyway). Decent engine advisable.

Heading W along the Welsh coast takes you to deep water and good wandering round Milford Haven.

There a few harbours on the N Coast of Devon and Cornwall that do need care. It is not as easy a coast as English Channel, but much quieter in terms of boat density, and the beer is better

Cardiff is full of experienced and friendly cruising types. Some of them even post on the forum

 

[Manic76]

Thanks for the info. To my mind the English Channel out of Southampton is fairly straightforward, barring the traffic. The east coast (out of Harwich) was definitely more challenging but I suspect less so than the BC?

 

[oldmanofthehills]

Essentially you can only go with the tide in the upper BC, except perhaps for quick trip round the bay. However that 3+kt tide gives you legs on both outward and inbound legs. My elderly 31ft westerly did 11kt over ground yesterday on way home

No harbours of refuge on the English/Cornish side, and only 3 non-drying marinas but some safe anchorages. More on the Welsh side but though trips to bays are possible, trips to pubs are not except in Milford sound. You will row ashore a lot unless you restrict yourself greatly. I would recommend a bilge keeler so you can use the drying harbours easily. Drying out a long keeler with 5m rise and fall in the drying harbours is a challenge (though I have just bought one) and drying out fin keelers has same challenge with additional risk of damage to fin due to bumpy drying outs and surge. However big your engine you will sometimes wish for more, you need to be able to make 3 against a 3 to 4 kt tide and chop on occasions. 20hp wont do for a 33ft.

33 ft large for some of the creeks but fine in Cardiff and gives you better cruising speed. For comfort the heavier the better particularly if like myself you suffer mal-de-mare. BC chop worse than English Channel. And the biggest best anchor you can manage: Bruce a start with Delta, Rocna or Spade as spare. No CQR copies.

On the plus side you will learn more about tides than most sailors in any waters and have the sea mostly to your self. And pilotage not navigation will be the order of the day.

The BC is a great place, after a few seasons you will love it

 

[alant]

Hi all,

We are currently contemplating buying a bigger yacht and mooring it in Cardiff Bay. However we are slightly concerned that we are not experienced enough and that leisurely weekend cruising may not be that viable?

In terms of experience, I have day skipper, radio etc qualifications and have sailed extensively on the south and east coasts, but only as crew and not since around 2010 so navigation skills are a bit/very rusty). We currently have a yacht on Windermere where those skills are not being tested...

Usage wise, sadly I still have to work, so primary use would be at weekend and the occasional week away.

So the question is, am I being overly cautious? Would a few trips out as crew be a good starting point to ensure we are happy with the area and the challenges it can throw up? And how easy are weekend jaunts to interesting places (with pubs!)?

Thanks in advance for any thoughts...

The tide goes up & down a long way leaving behind lots of hard sand, not the soft mud experienced on the East Coast. It also moves at an alarming speed. If anchoring, you will be amazed at how much time you have for beachcombing, as the deep water quickly becomes a vast strand of beach. You have to understand & use the tides.

 

[sarabande]

No soft mud in the Bristol Channel ? Local knowledge would prove you wrong....

 

[alant]

For Bristol Channelyou will be better off with twin bilge keels as it allows you to creep into harbours like Instow, Minehead, Ilfracombe, etc. and dry out. Watchet also a possibility.

Have a look at pics of e.g. Ilfracombe and see what the harbour looks like at low tide.

With that sort of length you should be able to overcome the tidal streams except in the strongest places (which you will be avoiding anyway). Decent engine advisable.

Heading W along the Welsh coast takes you to deep water and good wandering round Milford Haven.

There a few harbours on the N Coast of Devon and Cornwall that do need care. It is not as easy a coast as English Channel, but much quieter in terms of boat density, and the beer is better

Cardiff is full of experienced and friendly cruising types. Some of them even post on the forum

I well remember being just off Ilfracombe at low tide (delivery trip) & getting a crick in my neck as I gazed almost vertically upward toward the harbour.

 

[alant]

No soft mud in the Bristol Channel ? Local knowledge would prove you wrong....

Not the bits I've sailed on.

 

[sarabande]

Then I must have sailed in many bits of the BC that you haven't. Even Ilfracombe harbour and Instow are notorious for soggy sea beds. Deliquescent alluvial deposits, to be more accurate.

 

[Manic76]

There's a new word for me. Not sure I can pronounce it though.

 

[Manic76]

Thanks again for the comments and advice, especially on keels and anchors. So for those who moor in Cardiff Bay, what would be a weekend in terms of destinations, timings, moorings etc?

 

[bitbaltic]

For your first question, are you experienced enough, certainly yes. As said tides are more than key, they are critical. But you should do no more than brush up and read and digest the pilots.

For day and weekend sailing of the sort you propose I also vote for bilge keels on a tough British-built boat. Then you can go to the Devon/Cornwall harbours with confidence.

All Bristol Channel mistakes are tide and/or weather mistakes eg sailing over grounds without water or- from Cardiff- going west with the ebb against strong winds. Unless you have done some offshore racing (and even if you have) the latter will be an education in sea state and wave height.

On a less positive note the easiest day trip from Cardiff is Portishead and be aware that at 18nm from Cardiff it is the length of the entire Solent away. Ports (of choice or refuge) are relatively distant. The most pleasant sailing is in Milford and this is 90-odd Nm west and a significant passage, not doable and back in a weekend. On the Welsh coast Swansea is the only viable weekender; better choices on the English side.

After 5 years in Cardiff and with a new baby we took our boat permanently to Milford so I guess that in the end days where we got to with family sailing in the inner channel and I don’t miss it either.

If you are looking for relaxed blue water and pubs with pontoons or anchorages off in the BC, you should consider going 2 hours down the M4.

 

[Sneds]

Don't forget Portishead, around 20nm from Cardiff Bay
Up with the flood and home with the ebb, plenty do the trip every weekend, in both directions
Some even in motor boats ;-)

 

[Sneds]

Sorry Bitbaltic, just read the end of your post

 

[Dutch01527]

I have had my boat in Cardiff for 2 years and think that there are pluses and negatives of the location

+ easy and quick to get to for me
+ not crowded on the water
+ interesting and challenging sailing but not as difficult as sometimes made out
+ interesting and characterful places to visit on the English coast
+ the city and bay are great places for a night out
+ cheap at c. £700 per year for club membership and end on pontoon mooring
+ Bay is good for going out for a quick blast
+ good infrastructure such as supermarkets, chandlers, repair agents ect
+ friendly and non snooty people

- day sailing options severely limited if you want to go ashore for lunch
- weekend sailing with night away choices are limited by tide times so you might have only one option of location if you want to leave and arrive in daylight hours
- many of the harbours are only accessible a couple of hours either side of high water so anchoring off is necessary either overnight or to wait for high water.
- if going West getting back can be involve leaving a harbour just after high water and waiting at anchor for the flood tide
- wind over tide can result in “interesting” sea states. Not dangerous but be carefull if sailing with less confident people. It would be easy to scare someone off sailing for life if you were in the wrong place at the wrong time.

You need very good anchoring gear, a good engine, a good understanding of tidal passage planning and the flexibility to go where and when the tide dictates not where and when it suits you. I think it also helps if you are not to much of a sail only purist and are happy to motor sail when needed to keep to schedule or to push into the tide for an hour when required.

 

[steveej]

The Pros for me.....

Closest cruising destination to home (for me anyway)
Berthing, lift outs in terms of Marina facilities about a third of the south coast if not more.
Fewer snobby people
Uncrowded waters
The bay is great for practise if conditions not allowing you to go out
Good infrastructure in terms of chandlery, supermarkets etc

The main challenge as far as I am concerned is not necessarily the speed of the tides as you get similar speeds in Brittany, Western Solent and other places. The big challenge is the tidal range because it complicates the logistics of getting into the drying harbours when you only have a weekend.

This is mainly when you head west from Cardiff because the time you get to your destination, the ebb tide means have lost the water to get in. You will need to anchor for a good few hours (potentially 4 or 5 hours) and so top notch anchoring gear with long rodes are essential along with a kedge that you can use in areas of poor holding or to stop the uncomfortable action of the boat yawing about when tide and wind are at right angles. You will need a decent dinghy and outboard to lay the kedge and to get ashore.

To get back east, you then have to wait for water to leave by which time you have lost most of the flood to help you get back to Cardiff, which means you then get stuck at the tidal gate at Lavernock point. So it may well be the case that you will need to leave at the last opportunity (say HW +3 but it all depends on the harbour) and then anchor somewhere before catching the next flood back to Cardiff.

It is for this reason I mainly anchor off and don't bother going into the harbour, but anchor off and go ashore in the dinghy.

These points mean that if you really want to get into some of the harbours you really need a long weekend/third day, and because most of my sailing is weekend, my next boat will be a shallow fin or lifting keel.

Possible weekend trips would be......

Portishead (Marina)
Bristol (Marina)
Lydney (Marina)
Porthcawl (Marina)
Swansea (Marina)
Watchet (Marina)
Porlock Wier (but you will be at anchor), if you go in, you really need the third day
Lynmouth (as for porlock)
Woody Bay (at anchor)
Combe Martin (at anchor)
Lundy Island but a third day is better

I have often done Cardiff to Porlock, Dinghy ashore for pub lunch then up to watchet for the night and back to Cardiff on Sunday. You can also apply this strategy to Lynmouth. Or skip watchet and go straight back to Cardiff. Will give you 2 x 4 hour blocks of sailing with a few hours for lunch in between - nice day sail. Lynmouth, Porlock, Woody and Coombe can all be done there and back in a day but you will not have much time ashore in Woody or Combe because they are further away.

If you only want a couple of hours then it is a trip around flat holm at slack water just watch out for the wolves.

For longer periods / holidays you have Pembrokeshire, Ireland, Padstow, Scilly Isles.

Hope this helps.

 

[Manic76]

Dutch and Steve, thank you for your comprehensive comments, really appreciated. If I am honest I am split 50/50 on being excited/terrified by the concept of BC sailing.

If anyone needs crew for a day out of Cardiff we would be very interested in helping out

 

[steveej]

Dutch and Steve, thank you for your comprehensive comments, really appreciated. If I am honest I am split 50/50 on being excited/terrified by the concept of BC sailing.

If anyone needs crew for a day out of Cardiff we would be very interested in helping out

I would not be terrified.

It has a reputation that is totally unjustified in my view.

You do need to approach your sailing on the basis of assessing conditions and tides on the day and going where they dictate, rather than where you perhaps want. But if you approach it like that, you will get lots of sailing in.

I did all those weekends when I was as day skipper in a 22ft boat.

I say you should try it for a few seasons, then if you become bored, move the boat somewhere else.

And remember that the bilge keel is only going realistically come into use if you have longer than a weekend, so if you do decide to move the boat somewhere else, you are then stuck with a bilge keel.

It is not the performance issue, it is the fact most are very old boats and are money pits generally requiring much more maintenance.