Access to Marinas during Covid 19 restrictions

[ip485]

This debate about names is really pretty pointless and has been done to death many many times. There are all the usual well rehearsed arguments in both directions. However the owners of the board see it fit to be the way it is, so I suspect there isnt much mileage in discussing this further.

Anyway it diverts from the discussion in hand so would be better taken to another thread for those who wish to discuss as is entirely their right.

 

[Stemar]

Without going into all the arguments, it seems to me that, when this is all over, the marinas who look after their customers while the mess is going on will have plenty of customers, those that don't will have plenty of empty berths.

There was a time when marinas could charge what they wanted and still fill their berths, but those days have gone. I don't see marinas closing, not the big ones, at least, but I reckon there'll be some belt tightening, and those that gouge now may well go under when people vote with their keels

 

[BabySharkDooDooDooDooDoo]

I can imagine that those geared towards visitors such as Cowes Yacht Haven will have a particularly hard time of things.

 

[duncan99210]

Trying to conflate Wimbledon, a once a year event, with a marina which operates year round won’t wash. All big events (and quite a lot of smaller ones) have cancellation and disruption insurance: makes sense as does the balance of premium to risk. Try to insure a year round activity against disruption and premiums will rapidly outpace the protection offered, especially something as prone to weather events as a marina.
I’m still not clear on what principle people are basing their expectation of a reduction in fees. The only part of the usual service provided which you can’t have is access to your boat, which is effectively prohibited by the movement restrictions and is out with the control of the marina. Instead, marinas have to continue in operation, perhaps increasing (but at least retaining) manning levels to substitute for absent owners. All their fixed costs remain the same, your boats are parked in as safe an environment as possible, why should they offer a refund? Some are being remarkably generous but may yet come to regret their generosity if things continue for a few months and cash flows continue to remain absent.

 

[Ian_Rob]

.................now your just confusing me Englebert, I thought you were related to a Ford Prefect?

 

[ip485]

Trying to conflate Wimbledon, a once a year event, with a marina which operates year round won’t wash. All big events (and quite a lot of smaller ones) have cancellation and disruption insurance: makes sense as does the balance of premium to risk. Try to insure a year round activity against disruption and premiums will rapidly outpace the protection offered, especially something as prone to weather events as a marina.

Really - why? I cant think of many instances that could cause disruption? In fact I cant recall a single one in say the last ten years, inclduing weather, other than of course owners deciding not to go out. What do you have in mind?

If a business choose to balance the risk against the cost that is a matter for them, but when there are claims, they will find their cover is defective and will need to make good the cost. That as ever are the pros and cons of deciding whether or not to insure adequately.

I very much doubt in years gone by it would have added hardly anything to the premium to lift this exclusion. I fully accept that this will not be the case in future!

My business runs continuously, like most, and I have insurance, and the cost was not excessive.

and Wimbledon dont only run the Major, they have events thoughout the year.

 

[Lightwave395]

I can imagine that those geared towards visitors such as Cowes Yacht Haven will have a particularly hard time of things.

CYH yard is packed full of boats every winter, most of which get launched end of march when the winter deal ends, they're all still there and the whole site is gates shut and in lockdown, most of these apart from the race boats that are dry sailed normally go off to East Cowes / Shepherds Wharf or up the Medina. I guess it will take some untangling when the situation is eased as most owners will have paid their other marina fees or the Medina mooring fee back in January

 

[ip485]

I might add that my T/O and profit may not be all that dissimiliar from some marinas, and I have no such exclusion and the premium I dont consider excessive. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but equally one might well question why this limitation was accepted if indeed it has been. It will be interesting to see which marinas have satisfactory business interuption cover and whether the insurers are debating force majeure, and, if they do have cover, how they will deal with berth holder's fees.

 

[BabySharkDooDooDooDooDoo]

CYH yard is packed full of boats every winter, most of which get launched end of march when the winter deal ends, they're all still there and the whole site is gates shut and in lockdown, most of these apart from the race boats that are dry sailed normally go off to East Cowes / Shepherds Wharf or up the Medina. I guess it will take some untangling when the situation is eased as most owners will have paid their other marina fees or the Medina mooring fee back in January

I suspect that issue is going to be a recurrent theme in many boatyards where they take large number of 'itinerant' yachts which would then normally disperse to swinging moorings and the like.

 

[ip485]

Any responsible CEO will be talking to insurers, considering when and how restrictions can be eased, considering how costs can be minimised and deciding what position to take with their berth holders. They will be quick to keep berth holders informed and will be consulting widely with Government as to the specific concerns of boat owners, and the differences between them and holiday home owners. Of course, some will bury there heads in the sand and hope this all goes away, or hope they can go with "the industry". Inevitably there will be a few that do nothing - or as little as possible. None of this is rocket science.

We shall see, but I would very strongly recommend being in the first category and not simply shrugging shoulders with a what can we do.

Protecting the NHS at the moment and the devasting loss of life is beyond words, BUT, in time things will return to some level of normality, and rightly, it is then that the searching questions will be asked. Why do you think in Government everything now has to be in writing before anyone will make a decision - they all know what is coming - and as say I dont in any way take away from the seriousness, it is simply that this is what will happen, like it or not, so get a jump on it.

It is no difference from why the full breakdown of the NHS's ability to cope with this was undertaken only three years ago and the report has been silenced becasue it was so devastating. Nothing was done. Dont think now there will not be enormous pressure to disclose the report - there will. Now is not the time - but when this has passed, it will be the time.

 

[Daydream believer]

Has it occurred to anyone that not all marinas are owned outright, but may be financed by loans? These loans still have to be paid whether deferred or not. Judging by comments some marinas ( quite a lot I expect) are going to have some bad debts. Particularly those paid by standing order, rather than annual up front fees. Some will just cancell the SO & do a runner at the earliest opportunity.

I also note that some marinas have to dredge regularly. The marina I am in dredges 1/3 every year. Some will be relying on the income stream to pay for that. Some marinas have a high visitor attendance into berths vacated by regular holders who are away ( I am usually away for 12-15 weeks but still pay for an annual berth) as well as allocated berths. These will be non existent, apart from some unable to leave - but are crying unfair!!

I do not think that it will be a bed of roses for many marinas who are also loosing out on the other income streams that have been lost.
ie some rent out to chandlers etc that may become bad debts, or need vital support from the marina. Should the owners help them so that they are there for the benefit of berth holders in the future? Should they ignore them & give reductions, that they may well be unable to afford, to berth holders, even though the berth holders still have the benefit of a safe secure berth.

 

[steveeasy]

My view is most busineses cover their running costs with the main income stream and profit comes from additional sales/revenue streams. Its just clear everyone will be taking a hit, be it a boatowner, marina, tenant business or sailing school, there will be very few exceptions. Just how it is, most people are preparing to do the best they can when things start up one day. im sure a few more boats will be walked away from, prices might drop if things get really bad, but things would need to fall of a cliff for that to happen.

Steveeasy

 

[RJJ]

Has it occurred to anyone that not all marinas are owned outright, but may be financed by loans? These loans still have to be paid whether deferred or not. Judging by comments some marinas ( quite a lot I expect) are going to have some bad debts. Particularly those paid by standing order, rather than annual up front fees. Some will just cancell the SO & do a runner at the earliest opportunity.

I also note that some marinas have to dredge regularly. The marina I am in dredges 1/3 every year. Some will be relying on the income stream to pay for that. Some marinas have a high visitor attendance into berths vacated by regular holders who are away ( I am usually away for 12-15 weeks but still pay for an annual berth) as well as allocated berths. These will be non existent, apart from some unable to leave - but are crying unfair!!

I do not think that it will be a bed of roses for many marinas who are also loosing out on the other income streams that have been lost.
ie some rent out to chandlers etc that may become bad debts, or need vital support from the marina. Should the owners help them so that they are there for the benefit of berth holders in the future? Should they ignore them & give reductions, that they may well be unable to afford, to berth holders, even though the berth holders still have the benefit of a safe secure berth.

...and the debtors may also reasonably agree to take a hit. If you send the management and shareholders bust, you are left with a heap of arguing and legal fees, in order to be left with a failed business, with customers who are inconvenienced as well as impoverished, and nobody who knows how to run it.

If the management were the right people to run your show beforehand, they are probably the right people to run it after. Debtors don't want to pick up pieces from bankruptcies. It's in all party's interests to move to a new normal which to my mind implies customers can expect some combination of forbearance and price cuts in acknowledgement of eroded service.

 

[C Pearl]

All the Bloggs and forums I have watched or read from the Caribbean have the same concern, about what happens come hurricane season?????

We all hope that the infection and mortality rates of the virus will slow dramatically soon, and quarantines will be lifted before hurricane season in the Caribbean, but as I have already experienced in some small way - many governments (even those who's entire economic income relies on the tourist season) do not have the capability to consider the safety of cruisers, as a priority. They are trying to get enough face masks and medical equipment for the continuing emergency, or trying to keep the food supply chains opened while securing a quarantine. They don't want to concern themselves as to how these infectious cruisers are going to get to safety come hurricane season. This is a first world problem.

The way live aboard cruisers usually live, means that we are extremely good at quarantine, self isolation in small spaces, provisioning for long periods, very self reliant and adapting to most things that are thrown at us, so we are actually a very low threat to anywhere we would like to gain access to, and very willing and capable of carrying out a strict two week self quarantine when we arrive to safety, or better still en-route to safety.

The problem is that we are seen like the cruise ships that are just one big floating Covid-19 incubating petri dish, sailing from port to port, spreading disease and taking valuable supplies and resources from the local natives.
Time and again I feel that if live aboards, could somehow be acknowledged as having their boat as their "primary residence", (although registered to an address on land), it would give us more of a legitimate voice as a community, to be recognised as a legitimate lifestyle, and NOT a dodgy bunch of drug smugglers who are trying to duck under the radar to avoid paying taxes.

To recognise our boat is our primary residence, that needs to be protected in the same way that anybody's residence on land should be protected in times of disaster, like a bush fire or a storm) would allow authorities to acknowledge that cruisers should be allowed to apply for some kind of dispensation to come into safe harbour as long as they follow strict quarantine rules set out in that country, such as, a two week self isolation for all on-board.

I have been hearing too many accounts of boats being refused entry to ports and marinas, under the heading "quarantine", who just need to fill up with drinking water on a deserted pontoon, and this is prior to hurricane season. If hurricane season hits and a complete lockdown of the US and other safe harbours or marinas with Cyclone Pits expands or continues, with no exceptions, I fear for what cruisers in the Caribbean can do to get to safety. I would also be very surprised if any insurance company would pay out for damage done to a boat in this situation.

Hurricane season in the Caribbean officially starts on 1st June, but has been known to actually start as early as May, which is just a few weeks away. So most cruisers would usually need to start migrating to a safe place during April, but with no exceptions, so many restrictions, and no lifting of quarantines in sight, my blood runs cold for my forgotten fellow Cruisers, left stranded in the Caribbean!
What can we do to have the safety of cruisers and their homes/boats taken seriously and not dismissed as unimportant? We may all be like tiny independent islands, but together we could be heard.

 

[ip485]

C Pearly - great post - again very much on theme of planning for the future.

I hope the Windies can co-ordinate allowing boats to transit to safe(ish) locations and the insurance companies will look hard at their geographical terms and conditions. Boats can be lifted into pits and there are some safe(ish) marinas (Jolly Harbour, Antigua as one example) that have good capacity. Rooms on the islands are always under occupied in our Summer season and the travel industry will be devasted so they might taken "advantage" and for those with boats on the hard no reason why people should not be accomodated pending getting back to the UK. In terms of getting their boats out of the belt that is going to prove a lot more challenging. It is getting late to be on the move, and finding places you will be allowed to go, difficult. Staying realtively "local" may be the best solution.

 

[FlyingGoose]

To C pearly I understand your concern but all the boats are cruisers fly different international flags so the law of the sea dictates that your little boat is a sovereign place of the country registered in, it is within every other countries right to refuse entry to a foreign flagged vessel with the potential of plague,
This virus hit in January and spread across the World and caught every one out with the speed of it , but it is not a small Caribbean state with little facilitates to look after those from another country, the best bet is to contact your consulate or embassy and see if they can help . even if it is to get water and food , and try and get a safe harbour to take you

 

[andythefiddler]

This all makes me very sad (& angry) 3 weeks ago, or thereabouts I mothballed my boat on the hardstanding.
The keel is anti fouled, the prop is too.
The engine is out and the sail drive removed (mechanic can't get spares at present).
I have a list of jobs, and was planning to sail round UK this summer.
It is 45 minutes travel to the boat from home!

I have a son in law drives and ambulance, a daughter in Midwifery and another daughter and her partner in the Police.

B*ll*X please stay at home and we will all get through this safer and sooner.

Moral - Keep going out - more folk die - stay at home - more folk live and we all get better sooner.

It's a no brainer. Were at about 8,000 deaths so far - they are expecting 20,000 - lets not make it 30,000.

I love you all.

 

[wawando]

My marina offered an extend of 10% of period for free. A nice move.