A-sails

[zoidberg]

I'm more confused now than when I started.....

'Serves you right,' you say, 'for talking to sailmakers'. But - I've been listening hard.... and reading their leaflets, viewing their videos, downloading and watching their Facebook clips.

I'm looking to order ONE new bag for my wee boat, and I've been trying to optimise my ideas of what I want and why..... But each and every sailmaker seems to have his own differing, unique ideas - and own terminology to describe them.

So, can some clewed-up ( sic ) mariner explain to me the salient differences between a 'cruising chute' and an 'asymmetric' of similar size? I mean, there's only one mast and only one spinni halyard.

 

[TernVI]

There is as much difference between various things sold as 'cruising chutes' and between various 'asymmetric spinnakers' as between the average thing sold under each label.

There have been some truly horrible things sold as cruising chutes.
I would avoid anything that's not full on tri-radial or star cut, cheap horizontal cuts turn into offensive shapes quite quickly.

A racing asy will often be fairly flat, with not much 'shoulder' to the luff, particularly if it's intended for a boat which also carries symmetric kites.
A downwind oriented asy will have lots of luff shoulder which will be carried 'rotated' to windward when the boat is running fairly deep.
You will see pictures of J-boats with sprits where they have different sails for reaching or running.

A good cruising chute IMHO, will have a moderate amount of shoulder for a versatile sail.
But some people want either a more reach or run oriented sail.

I think asy's intended for furlers will generally have straighter luffs with not much shoulder. But I don't have much experience of furling asy's.

Also the amount of area people try to sell you may vary enormously. You can carry lots deep downwind in light air, but a racing reaching asy will probably be designed around the idea of a lot of fat people in Dubarry boots sat on the side of the boat.

Some people want their cruising chute to blast to France on a reach in a F3 or F4.
For me, it's more biased towards making progress downwind when others are resorting to the motor.
So I want a BIG sail, but not the fullest, as I will be sailing at maybe 5 knots in 6 knots of true wind, so the apparent wind comes a long way forwards.
I'd make sure your sailmaker understands what you want from it.

 

[flaming]

Very good summary from Tern there.

To illustrate some of his points. Here are 2 A-sails - both on J109s.

One is designed to sail as deep as possible, with massive broad shoulders. The other is to reach with.


I suggest starting by deciding what you want the sail to be best at. Is this is sail to make progress downwind in light airs, or a sail to enliven a moderate wind reach?

Then if it's a downwind sail, where do you want it to sit on the trade off between maximum potential speed vs ease of trimming. The first sail above, for example, will be very quick downwind, but it is not a set and forget sail. Do drive that boat downwind the trimmer and driver have to work well together.

 

[zoidberg]

That's very much as I'd understood it, thanks, James.... I'm fairly sure I am clear about what I want to do with it, on a smallish MAB shorthanded. That's going essentially downwind in lightish breeze when there's too much slop/not enuff air for the white sails to work well . I just want to keep the ould beggar moving.

I've found that sailmakers of all stripes quickly revert to jargon and acronyms, then to their OWN jargon and acronyms..... that 'North-speaking' agents are incomprehensible to 'Ullman', and they to those who speak 'Hoodish'. As for those whose first language is 'Antipodean/Thai'..... Sheesh!

I'm hoping my SeaFeather windvane gear will prove to be as good a 'tweaker' as I am - which is setting a rather low bar!

 

[TernVI]

....

I'm hoping my SeaFeather windvane gear will prove to be as good a 'tweaker' as I am - which is setting a rather low bar!

windvane and asy in light airs will be a bit interesting!
Won't it head up in the gusts to keep the apparent wind forwards? This is all very well until you get a gust you want to bear off for, to keep the sails above the keel.

 

[RJJ]

That's very much as I'd understood it, thanks, James.... I'm fairly sure I am clear about what I want to do with it, on a smallish MAB shorthanded. That's going essentially downwind in lightish breeze when there's too much slop/not enuff air for the white sails to work well . I just want to keep the ould beggar moving.

I've found that sailmakers of all stripes quickly revert to jargon and acronyms, then to their OWN jargon and acronyms..... that 'North-speaking' agents are incomprehensible to 'Ullman', and they to those who speak 'Hoodish'. As for those whose first language is 'Antipodean/Thai'..... Sheesh!

I'm hoping my SeaFeather windvane gear will prove to be as good a 'tweaker' as I am - which is setting a rather low bar!

Sounds to me like a moderate cruising chute. Somewhere between the two J/109 sails shown above. If you give the sailmaker specific instructions e..g, "from 60 degrees apparent in light winds, down to 140 degrees in 15 knots" they should be able to advise.

The whole thing about round-shouldered A-sails to go deeper than that is they take rather a lot of attention and won't help you much shorthanded. If you're sailing deep, sticking with the poled-out jib will probably suit well enough.

I don't think there's any "difference" between a racing and cruising sail. Maybe the latter you might specify one weight of cloth heavier for longevity at the slight expense of performance?

 

[zoidberg]

windvane and asy in light airs will be a bit interesting!
Won't it head up in the gusts to keep the apparent wind forwards? This is all very well until you get a gust you want to bear off for, to keep the sails above the keel.

I have a low threshold of tolerance for knockdowns, my good Tern, having had my fill in my 'young and stoopid days'. I'm thinking of a certain Farrier Fx-9 whose owner and son 'forgot' to clear the mast and we found ourselves, spinni up, in a 40+ knot gust that went on for, oh, most of the rest of the day. That's when I learned about team-terror and everyone 'sitting out' a trimaran flyer off the back beam! Now I'm in my 'old and stoopid' period, I've learned to take wilful spinnis down when such gustinesses are around..... or arrange for them to be self-demounting!

 

[Steve The Seagull]

I have drawn up below some sails to try and help show the difference between sails.
12.5m boat
Red spinnaker (Runner) is 140sqm
Blue Spinnaker (All Purpose) is 125sqm
Yellow Spinnaker (Reacher) is 105sqm
As you can see the runner is wider with more luff and leech round, and the reacher has the smallest amount of luff and leech round
A cruising chute is normally most like the blue sail, enough luff and leech round to be able to sail relativley deep downwind, while not being too large to make handaling difficult.

A note on top down furling - a flatter sail does top down furl better, but quite often a problem arrises from a top down kit being retro fitted to a boat, which in effect shortens the distance between the head and tack of the sail because of the furler, tack swivel and head swivel, making what was once a stable and easy to use sail too long in the luff and quite twitchy.

 

[TernVI]

I have drawn up below some sails to try and help show the difference between sails.
12.5m boat
Red spinnaker (Runner) is 140sqm
Blue Spinnaker (All Purpose) is 125sqm
Yellow Spinnaker (Reacher) is 105sqm
As you can see the runner is wider with more luff and leech round, and the reacher has the smallest amount of luff and leech round
A cruising chute is normally most like the blue sail, enough luff and leech round to be able to sail relativley deep downwind, while not being too large to make handaling difficult.

A note on top down furling - a flatter sail does top down furl better, but quite often a problem arrises from a top down kit being retro fitted to a boat, which in effect shortens the distance between the head and tack of the sail because of the furler, tack swivel and head swivel, making what was once a stable and easy to use sail too long in the luff and quite twitchy.
View attachment 110536
View attachment 110537
View attachment 110538
View attachment 110539

Interesting!
What softweare are they drawn on?
Cheers,

 

[Steve The Seagull]

Interesting!
What softweare are they drawn on?
Cheers,

Sail Pack by BSG Developments in France

 

[zoidberg]

Thanks, Steven Seag'll. That's a help.

Now when I 'engage' with sundry sailmakers .... and Andy.... I can point at the picture and - as I do with most 'furriners' - just shout louder at them youz guys.

You'll probably 'sheepdog' me into a blue one....

 

[Tomahawk]

One needs also consider where you are going to use said Assys.. and the likely speed of yon craft. Something like a Melgies 24 is very fast and will happily go fast enough to bring the apparent wind forward of the beam whilst a full displacement design like a Con 32 won't have the hull speed to play the angles down wind so they are faster going in a straight line with a symmetric. Then also consider your crew availability.

I have done the suicidal ... "Darling I think we really must get the kite down before B2" whilst hurtling north up Pegwell Bay ... two up on a Dehler 34 (just south of Ramsgate). It concentrates the mind but is not recommended.

 

[TernVI]

One needs also consider where you are going to use said Assys.. and the likely speed of yon craft. Something like a Melgies 24 is very fast and will happily go fast enough to bring the apparent wind forward of the beam whilst a full displacement design like a Con 32 won't have the hull speed to play the angles down wind so they are faster going in a straight line with a symmetric. ...

A lot of people underestimate the ability of 'slow' boats to get the apparent wind forwards in light airs.
A Contessa32, being an ugly masthead rig, can set a big cruising chute. In conditions where others are motoring dead downwind in zero apparent, they will sail the angles if you know what you are doing.
Guess your own vectors for 6 knots of breeze, but maybe 4.5 knots of boat speed? headed maybe 20dgrees up from true downwind? That puts a nice bit of apparent somewhere near the beam?

In 12 knots of breeze, symmetric comes into its own. Straight down wind, 6 knots boat speed, 6 knots apparent.
Different game of draughts entirely.

In light airs, the big cruising chute saves you from motoring downwind in a bubble of your own exhaust. The fact that you don't head straight downwind enables you to play the wind shifts, go in search of more or less tide etc etc, it makes a downwind leg a more thoughtful thing, even if where you want to go really is dead down wind.

 

[Tomahawk]

Absolutely it is horses and courses.. and capability of crew!! Don't forget them

 

[zoidberg]

I'm aware our good friend Tomahawk has a very capable crew/bowman.

She has to be...!

 

[DJE]

I know that boat - Whiskey Jack of RHKYC. I did quite a bit of racing on her a few years ago.

 

[Tomahawk]

I'm aware our good friend Tomahawk has a very capable crew/bowman.

She has to be...!

In my dreams...
The only time First Officer ventures forward of the cabin is to help drop the main in harbour or mooring.. She is strictly into the owners enclosure the rest of the time. I have to venture into Marlborough Country on my wn.

 

[Laser310]

Seems like the basic issue is A3 vs A4 - reacher vs runner.

A3 can furl, A4 can not - at least not a good one.

So, A3 is easier to use for short-handed.., mum and dad.., type of sailing, and will get used more frequently - right?

No.., not necessarily..., that's because in many conditions where an A3 will work great.., a Jib will kind of work too.., and, depending on the crew, it's easier to just make do with the jib. Just rig an outboard lead, and forget about it...

Now, when you need an A4, not much else will "kind of work". Yes, you could go wing-on-wing with the jib, if you have a pole. but you are really restricted in where you can sail - maybe 5-10deg either side of dead downwind.

So, the A4 actually fills a bigger hole in the inventory than an A3, if you have no other spinnakers.

My wife often gives me "that look" when I ruin our pleasant daysail by bringing the spinnaker up on deck. My only Asym is a non-furling A4, but it's big for the boat. It's a masthead hoist, and tacks to a long extendable sprit.