a real tragedy to our follow cruiser

[DownWest]

A previous thread commented on the switch from ketch to bermudan rig trend with modern big yachts. I can't help feeling that a 60 ft would be better off with smaller sails on a ketch rig, pref with genny and staysail forward. They don't look so elegant, but are much less reliant on powered winches. Our company yacht, at 35 tonns and over 60 ft had a ketch rig that the skipper and his girlfriend could handle. All the winches were manual. Skipper said it would do 12knts under sail or power, so was not fazed by weather.

 

[chrishscorp]

I noticed it said the preventer had snapped at some point. Surely if you are hauling the boom to the centre line the preventer should be slack. I wonder if they tried to centre the main by winching against the preventer which eventually gave way

And with a powered electric winch and in the dark wind and noise would you even notice breaking it ?

 

[geem]

Unfortunately with fully battened main on a 43' boat it produces such power there is thrust on mast and even with ball bearing cars so you can never reef while powered up.

Our 44ft boat uses Selden cars. We almost centre the main and winch down the sail using the outer reef lines. This pulls the sail into the stackpack. With everything done at the mast we don't have a problem. There is nothing wrong with reefing down wind except your setup?

 

[Fr J Hackett]

And with a powered electric winch and in the dark wind and noise would you even notice breaking it ?

From my reading it seems as though the preventer had been released and the main only partially brought to the centre line of the boat, the boat then gybed and the boom feel all the way to port, the boat came back and the boom crashed over to starboard and that is when the mainsheet parted or the block gave way.
Usual arrangements would be to have a preventer on each side of the boat and ease one tighten the other as you bring in the main all a bit of a palaver on such a big boat easy on a small boat so the preventer was released completely prior to trying to centre the main thus allowing it to crash gybe.
A better arrangement would have been one of the propriety boom preventers which are almost universal on large in boom furling boats, they allow the boom to slowly move and if the need was felt then a long line preventer as used could be used. With such an arrangement the preventer could have been released but the boom would still have been under control.

 

[dunedin]

Unfortunately with fully battened main on a 43' boat it produces such power there is thrust on mast and even with ball bearing cars so you can never reef while powered up.

That is my experience also. Can reef under sail going upwind, as jib backwinds main. But not downwind..
(Also fully battened main with good roller batten cars)

 

[bedouin]

From my reading it seems as though the preventer had been released and the main only partially brought to the centre line of the boat, the boat then gybed and the boom feel all the way to port, the boat came back and the boom crashed over to starboard and that is when the mainsheet parted or the block gave way.

I seem to remember it saying that "the preventer had parted" but without them knowing when.

Pretty sure they were head to wind so not gybing - so you have to question whether the helm was keeping a consistent course if the boom was crashing over like that.

 

[Laser310]

That is my experience also. Can reef under sail going upwind, as jib backwinds main. But not downwind..
(Also fully battened main with good roller batten cars)

this is definitely a downside to full battened mains.

racing mains are much easier to reef- even on a pretty big boat, as longs the gear is good.., the main usually comes down pretty easily even downwind.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

I seem to remember it saying that "the preventer had parted" but without them knowing when.

Pretty sure they were head to wind so not gybing - so you have to question whether the helm was keeping a consistent course if the boom was crashing over like that.

I think that is part of the problem that the boat was not really head to wind and in helming it over it caused the gybe as the boom was not retained perhaps the preventer was secured but slack and the gybe actually broke it.
All conjecture but it does seem that the problem centred around the boom not being under control as the boat came head to wind. It's doubtful if the description of conditions is accurate that a constant heading could be maintained which would lead to the boom swinging about.

 

[bedouin]

I think that is part of the problem that the boat was not really head to wind and in helming it over it caused the gybe as the boom was not retained perhaps the preventer was secured but slack and the gybe actually broke it.
All conjecture but it does seem that the problem centred around the boom not being under control as the boat came head to wind. It's doubtful if the description of conditions is accurate that a constant heading could be maintained which would lead to the boom swinging about.

Gybe implies putting the stern of the boat through the wind. When trying to reef you will hold the boat with bows to the wind (in this case using the engine). Unless I have misread the account that didn't happen.

For the boom to crash over in those circumstances suggests the heading was varying wildly - maybe not enough engine to maintain the heading in difficult wind/sea conditions.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Gybe implies putting the stern of the boat through the wind. When trying to reef you will hold the boat with bows to the wind (in this case using the engine). Unless I have misread the account that didn't happen.

For the boom to crash over in those circumstances suggests the heading was varying wildly - maybe not enough engine to maintain the heading in difficult wind/sea conditions.

Yes re reading they had got the boat head to wind but it is clear the mainsheet was not fully in nor the boom secured. As I said it is unlikely that they could hold a fixed course the waves alone would be swinging the bow about. To get to that position the preventer had to have been released and in anywise was ineffective. Perhaps the mainsheet had been hauled in as the boat was brought up into the wind but had not been cleated off because it was swinging freely from starboard to port so can't have been. That seems to have been the critical mistake. The rest just follows.

 

[geem]

this is definitely a downside to full battened mains.

That's not correct. We have fully a battened main. I have never turned into the wind to reef. Its the set up that is wrong not the sail

 

[sailaboutvic]

When we had our Dufour 385 with a fuller batton main we could drop then main while running down wind with the boom on the central line in mod to light winds ,
we have at time reef in that way,
But these was storm force winds , in the dark and once someone got injured.that changes things ,
Add to that crew which may had ever has been in these conditions.
If fine for us to say this or that, possibly if the accident didn't happen and the unfortunate couple was reading this they possibly too be saying they should had doneXYZ ,
Yes the boom should had been secured,
It's not the first time we brought the boom in as we started to go into the wind, only to find once in the wind the sheet hadn't been pulled in enough and the boom start to swing or the main sheet traveler was over to one side and its not been fully locked in place,
Anyone of them situation in other conditions would not had cause a problem , in the conditions could lead to what started the whole event.

 

[geem]

When we had our Dufour 385 with a fuller batton main we could drop then main while running down wind with the boom on the central line in mod to light winds ,
we have at time reef in that way,
But these was storm force winds , in the dark and once someone got injured.that changes things ,
Add to that crew which may had ever has been in these conditions.
If fine for us to say this or that, possibly if the accident didn't happen and the unfortunate couple was reading this they possibly too be saying they should had doneXYZ ,
Yes the boom should had been secured,
It's not the first time we brought the boom in as we started to go into the wind, only to find once in the wind the sheet hadn't been pulled in enough and the boom start to swing or the main sheet traveler was over to one side and its not been fully locked in place,
Anyone of them situation in other conditions would not had cause a problem , in the conditions could lead to what started the whole event.

Just to be clear, with in boom reefing you cannot reef downwind. You have to come head to wind.

 

[ean_p]

Our 44ft boat uses Selden cars. We almost centre the main and winch down the sail using the outer reef lines. This pulls the sail into the stackpack. With everything done at the mast we don't have a problem. There is nothing wrong with reefing down wind except your setup?

With the boom on the centre line for any length of time and secured as such, while stern to wind are you not afraid of a broach and if wind sufficient a potential knock down?

 

[geem]

With the boom on the centre line for any length of time and secured as such, while stern to wind are you not afraid of a broach and if wind sufficient a potential knock down?

We don't centre fully. We haul the boom far enough so that it keeps the sail off the aft lowers. That reduces the risk of the sail filling from the wrong side. The boat doesn't broach easily. She is no lightweight flyer. The boat is well mannered. She has never rounded up when over pressed. A heavy fin keel and deep rudder keep her well controlled. I can imagine in a lighter boat it would not be so easy

 

[Supertramp]

The best thing to be done on reading a report like this is to think how you would deal with similar circumstances, and perhaps how you might change your normal way of doing things with boat and crew.

For me I question the use of engine to reef, and especially at near full speed, but I don't know the boat or reefing system. Helming a boat motoring flat out in big seas is a difficult task especially with distractions. I've experienced 360 turns while crewing in such situations as people get distracted or let go the helm to grab a sheet. Running the engine can be false reassurance. My boat will 'lie ahull" with the helm lashed while I sort sails without engine and drawing on part filled jib or main and effectively hove to. Haven't tried it in a 40knt squall though. Long keel and conservative rig help, but many designs won't do this and different tactics are needed. Ditto for reefing downwind.

Everyone chooses a different hull and rig, and are free to choose whatever they want, as they should (respecting how you plan to sail). It's how you establish and adapt safe practices for your choice of boat. We still don't really know the root causes of the tragedy, versus contributing factors. But there is plenty to learn.

 

[geem]

The best thing to be done on reading a report like this is to think how you would deal with similar circumstances, and perhaps how you might change your normal way of doing things with boat and crew.

For me I question the use of engine to reef, and especially at near full speed, but I don't know the boat or reefing system. Helming a boat motoring flat out in big seas is a difficult task especially with distractions. I've experienced 360 turns while crewing in such situations as people get distracted or let go the helm to grab a sheet. Running the engine can be false reassurance. My boat will 'lie ahull" with the helm lashed while I sort sails without engine and drawing on part filled jib or main and effectively hove to. Haven't tried it in a 40knt squall though. Long keel and conservative rig help, but many designs won't do this and different tactics are needed. Ditto for reefing downwind.

Everyone chooses a different hull and rig, and are free to choose whatever they want, as they should (respecting how you plan to sail). It's how you establish and adapt safe practices for your choice of boat. We still don't really know the root causes of the tragedy, versus contributing factors. But there is plenty to learn.

We love our ketch in strong down wind conditions. Circa 40kts we simply drop the main, down wind. A line in the reef point allows us to attach that to one of the winches at the mast and simply haul it down. We then run on jib and reefed mizzen . No boom bouncing around above your head. It feels so much safer.
If it gusts over 40kts we drop the mizzen aswell if dead down wind.
Some may think that because we have a ketch we have a small mainsail but our 44ft ketch has the same mast height and boom length as a Ben 473. We have a lot of canvas. I can't imagine sailing with slab reefing with just the two of us with a bigger mainsail. We manage in heavy weather but everything is hard work.
Having a second furler with a jib is worth its weight in gold when the conditions get tough. Compared to a reefed genoa it's superb. Up wind or downwind a sail optimized for the wind speed makes a remarkable difference. The low centre of effort on canvas that is closer to the deck when the wind gets nasty really helps the boat motion far more than you would imagine

 

[Supertramp]

We love our ketch in strong down wind conditions. Circa 40kts we simply drop the main, down wind. A line in the reef point allows us to attach that to one of the winches at the mast and simply haul it down. We then run on jib and reefed mizzen . No boom bouncing around above your head. It feels so much safer.
If it gusts over 40kts we drop the mizzen aswell if dead down wind.
Some may think that because we have a ketch we have a small mainsail but our 44ft ketch has the same mast height and boom length as a Ben 473. We have a lot of canvas. I can't imagine sailing with slab reefing with just the two of us with a bigger mainsail. We manage in heavy weather but everything is hard work.
Having a second furler with a jib is worth its weight in gold when the conditions get tough. Compared to a reefed genoa it's superb. Up wind or downwind a sail optimized for the wind speed makes a remarkable difference. The low centre of effort on canvas that is closer to the deck when the wind gets nasty really helps the boat motion far more than you would imagine

You chose your rig carefully for practical handling rather than speed, backed it up with a solid design and have developed techniques to shorten and adjust sail to conditions on your boat with your crew. Those decisions won't suit everyone but they will keep you from suffering excess drama and surprises.

Wise choices borne out of experience I suspect.

 

[25931]

You chose your rig carefully for practical handling rather than speed, backed it up with a solid design and have developed techniques to shorten and adjust sail to conditions on your boat with your crew. Those decisions won't suit everyone but they will keep you from suffering excess drama and surprises.

Wise choices borne out of experience I suspect.

My impression is that the owner/skipper was not as experienced as many on here. It would appear that he had bought all the modern gadgetry without fully understanding it's limitations and was thus overconfident and unaware of sod's law.

 

[WindyWindyWindy]

Add to that crew which may had ever has been in these conditions.

The crew appeared to be pretty experienced, if unfamiliar with the boat.
"1 USCG licensed captain; 1 with over fifteen years of sailing experience"

People seem to think that they had an accidental gybe, but that's not what happened. They were head to wind and wave action was throwing the boom around.

I think the take away is to reef early especially if the weather is different to the forecast.