A depressing couple of days at the Southampton Boat show

daveg45

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For the first time in 10 years I am in the UK in September and thought I would take an inspirational trip to the Southampton Boat show. The annual 'do I, should I, could I' change the boat this year. Each year I go through the same thought processes and each year just end up working with what I have got. I have to say what I saw was quite depressing and whatever happened to Discovery Yachts? It took me a while to realise I was on a rebranded Southerly. As a boat it is ok I guess if you are sub 6ft in stature but at 6'2" tall it felt cramped especially round the saloon table situated above the lifting keel. So moving swiftly on to the pontoons the next offering was the retro styled Rustler 42 with its narrow transom small cockpit limited el fresco dining and socialising space. OK I guess if you want to sail around the UK waters in it but I have no ideal why anyone would want to do that. On the stern was a hydrovane self steering and watt&sea hydro generator. The guy in the cockpit flogging it was immediately disparaging about ALL the other boats on the pontoon stating the rustler was the only one with an incapsulated keel. First rule of sales. DO NOT DIS THE COMPETITION. Oh but wait a minute, he clearly believed he had no competition. He clearly believed the Ruslter was the dogs bollocks of boats " How do you power this boat long distance sailing" I asked. "there is no space to put any solar panels in-fact there is barely space to sit and eat". his answer was to to suggest flexi panels forward of the spray hood and the 'high power' alternator for battery charging. A quick lift of the engine compartment revealed an engine shoehorned into the available space with completely inadequate compact stock alternator. How that could be upgraded `i have no idea. Power would be a challenge if you didn't want to burn fossil fuel to make water and keep your freshly caught fish frozen for sure. I can't remember the price tag on the Rustler other than it was eye watering. Nice quality woodwork though. Taking on unfamiliar crew for 15 to 20 day atlantic crossing on it would be.... well a bit cramped.

It is important to take off those 'blue water boat' goggles and think about what you want from a boat. If you intent leaving the med playground and do some ocean sailing you need to think about what you want at the other side. The time at anchor will be more than time crossing oceans. how will you get in and out of the dinghy (which will probably be bigger and more capable than your 2.5m powered by an air-cooled hairdryer . How and where to store the dinghy that has a rigid hull and decent engine where you won't find it missing in the morning. Where to store SCUBA bottles and a dive compressor. A bathing platform to get on and off the paddle board. If you intend staying onboard in the tropics during hurricane season it will not be long before you wish you had air-conditioning and a generator powerful enough to run it. A Fridge and freezer in the galley. This is a small list but not sure the Rustler ticks many of those boxes for me. For that amount of money I would want more waterline length and more hull speed and more capacity.

So moving on to the French offerings (and I will stick Baveria and Hansa in with this lot) and I didn't feel I was on a boat at all. Ok it looked like a boat with a pointy end and a mast. Even a boom. But where is the mainsheet traveler? Don't people sail anymore? OK nice layout if tied to a pontoon but why would anyone propose putting the galley along the far bulkhead? How anything can be passed to the cockpit without spilling it I have no idea. So maybe I bought one of the last production boats back in 2008 before they all stared making floating caravans because that is clearly what they have become.

The only boat that got my attention and had any potential of prizing the Yorkshire cash out of me was Contest. Beautiful, spacious and clearly capable. But way out of my price range although the Contest at the show was 55ft I think. I am not a lover of centre cockpit boats mainly because I can't stand up in them unless they are big. I can't even stand up in th cockpit of an Oyster 46 because the bimini under the boom restricts headroom.

it seems my old boat will carry me across the pacific, unless i consider a catamaran maybe but then i will have completely lost the plot.

Maybe you guys can point me towards what i am looking for. i find myself turning into the typical old git saying "oh they don't make 'em like they use to do they! but you know what? they don't. Shocking especially when you consider the price tag of this floating garbage which one day will become an environmental issue before its time i suspect.


So lets forget talk of Ted Brewers comfort factor or angles of vanishing stability and I am not interested in stories of people bashing to windward in the med in strong winds and short choppy seas destroying the charter boat they have hired. Those people don't belong at a helm of a boat. The what if's and concerns most people trade wind sailing long distance are, What if the engine fails, fridge fails, autopilot fails, water maker fails etc.
 

Supertramp

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For the first time in 10 years I am in the UK in September and thought I would take an inspirational trip to the Southampton Boat show. The annual 'do I, should I, could I' change the boat this year. Each year I go through the same thought processes and each year just end up working with what I have got. I have to say what I saw was quite depressing and whatever happened to Discovery Yachts? It took me a while to realise I was on a rebranded Southerly. As a boat it is ok I guess if you are sub 6ft in stature but at 6'2" tall it felt cramped especially round the saloon table situated above the lifting keel. So moving swiftly on to the pontoons the next offering was the retro styled Rustler 42 with its narrow transom small cockpit limited el fresco dining and socialising space. OK I guess if you want to sail around the UK waters in it but I have no ideal why anyone would want to do that. On the stern was a hydrovane self steering and watt&sea hydro generator. The guy in the cockpit flogging it was immediately disparaging about ALL the other boats on the pontoon stating the rustler was the only one with an incapsulated keel. First rule of sales. DO NOT DIS THE COMPETITION. Oh but wait a minute, he clearly believed he had no competition. He clearly believed the Ruslter was the dogs bollocks of boats " How do you power this boat long distance sailing" I asked. "there is no space to put any solar panels in-fact there is barely space to sit and eat". his answer was to to suggest flexi panels forward of the spray hood and the 'high power' alternator for battery charging. A quick lift of the engine compartment revealed an engine shoehorned into the available space with completely inadequate compact stock alternator. How that could be upgraded `i have no idea. Power would be a challenge if you didn't want to burn fossil fuel to make water and keep your freshly caught fish frozen for sure. I can't remember the price tag on the Rustler other than it was eye watering. Nice quality woodwork though. Taking on unfamiliar crew for 15 to 20 day atlantic crossing on it would be.... well a bit cramped.

It is important to take off those 'blue water boat' goggles and think about what you want from a boat. If you intent leaving the med playground and do some ocean sailing you need to think about what you want at the other side. The time at anchor will be more than time crossing oceans. how will you get in and out of the dinghy (which will probably be bigger and more capable than your 2.5m powered by an air-cooled hairdryer . How and where to store the dinghy that has a rigid hull and decent engine where you won't find it missing in the morning. Where to store SCUBA bottles and a dive compressor. A bathing platform to get on and off the paddle board. If you intend staying onboard in the tropics during hurricane season it will not be long before you wish you had air-conditioning and a generator powerful enough to run it. A Fridge and freezer in the galley. This is a small list but not sure the Rustler ticks many of those boxes for me. For that amount of money I would want more waterline length and more hull speed and more capacity.

So moving on to the French offerings (and I will stick Baveria and Hansa in with this lot) and I didn't feel I was on a boat at all. Ok it looked like a boat with a pointy end and a mast. Even a boom. But where is the mainsheet traveler? Don't people sail anymore? OK nice layout if tied to a pontoon but why would anyone propose putting the galley along the far bulkhead? How anything can be passed to the cockpit without spilling it I have no idea. So maybe I bought one of the last production boats back in 2008 before they all stared making floating caravans because that is clearly what they have become.

The only boat that got my attention and had any potential of prizing the Yorkshire cash out of me was Contest. Beautiful, spacious and clearly capable. But way out of my price range although the Contest at the show was 55ft I think. I am not a lover of centre cockpit boats mainly because I can't stand up in them unless they are big. I can't even stand up in th cockpit of an Oyster 46 because the bimini under the boom restricts headroom.

it seems my old boat will carry me across the pacific, unless i consider a catamaran maybe but then i will have completely lost the plot.

Maybe you guys can point me towards what i am looking for. i find myself turning into the typical old git saying "oh they don't make 'em like they use to do they! but you know what? they don't. Shocking especially when you consider the price tag of this floating garbage which one day will become an environmental issue before its time i suspect.


So lets forget talk of Ted Brewers comfort factor or angles of vanishing stability and I am not interested in stories of people bashing to windward in the med in strong winds and short choppy seas destroying the charter boat they have hired. Those people don't belong at a helm of a boat. The what if's and concerns most people trade wind sailing long distance are, What if the engine fails, fridge fails, autopilot fails, water maker fails etc.
Understand your points.

At a boat show you meet Marketing and Sales rather than designers and users (unless you went to see Concerto of the forums Westerly - a real boat!). For me I would want designed in features and simple easy to maintain and repair systems of top quality. My boat is 30 years old and already has more electrics than house and car combined! As an example Ovni appeared to do this well at least in the past.

Spare yourself the cost of the entry ticket and go for a walk around your local marina. All shapes and sizes but if you get talking there are usually really experienced people and their boats. And there isn't one answer to most questions. I learn more from that than magazines and boat shows.
 

Tranona

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Nearest you will get from a production builder is the Bavaria Vision. 42 at the show and 46 still made. What you want does not represent a big market, and probably declining. when demand was more buoyant it was possible to find common ground between the high demand sectors and the more niche, but in recent years the trend as you can see is to focus on the Med holiday boat market with design features that do not adapt well to other applications.

You find exactly the same problem for buyers looking for a modern day Westerly who may well have been happy with an AWB from 1995- 2010 or so, but find their options have steadily disappeared. Plenty of similar observations to yours on a number of recent threads on PBO and Scuttlebutt. I sympathise as despite being a defender of modern boat design having owned 2 Bavarias, I would not buy any of the mass production boats at the show for use in the UK - but would if I was doing again what I did 20 years ago buying my first Bavaria for use in Greece. Very happy with my current boat bought in 2015, but believe that the Cruiser range (not at the show) designed by Bruce Farr is not long for this world and likely to be replaced in the under 40' by shrunk version of the new C range, aping the competitors
 

capnsensible

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I'm not really up to speed on all the arguments about what boat is best stuff.

Personally, I reckon there's shed loads of boats of all ages that are perfectly capable of long distance sailing if a bit of effort is put into preparation. Especially if one doesn't take two years doing it and doesn't buy a ton of stuff that's just never going to be used.

I like simple. ?
 

Koeketiene

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I'm not really up to speed on all the arguments about what boat is best stuff.

Personally, I reckon there's shed loads of boats of all ages that are perfectly capable of long distance sailing if a bit of effort is put into preparation. Especially if one doesn't take two years doing it and doesn't buy a ton of stuff that's just never going to be used.

I am instantly suspicious of boats that are being sold as 'blue water ready'.
With maybe the possible exception of Amel.

I like simple. ?

+1
 

Graham376

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I'm not really up to speed on all the arguments about what boat is best stuff.

Personally, I reckon there's shed loads of boats of all ages that are perfectly capable of long distance sailing if a bit of effort is put into preparation. Especially if one doesn't take two years doing it and doesn't buy a ton of stuff that's just never going to be used.

I like simple. ?

What struck me when we became based here (an international stopping off point for many long distance liveaboards) was that many of the boats are much older and on age and "style" alone would be discounted by the majority of UK marina dwelling wannabees as not modern or fast enough. Quite often the beaten up old steel boat has been there and done it - several times.
 

daveg45

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What struck me when we became based here (an international stopping off point for many long distance liveaboards) was that many of the boats are much older and on age and "style" alone would be discounted by the majority of UK marina dwelling wannabees as not modern or fast enough. Quite often the beaten up old steel boat has been there and done it - several times.

Really not sure what you are insinuating with your comment to be honest. Are you suggesting the only way to go ocean sailing is on an old beaten up old steel shit ship. Or an old Moody maybe with a dinghy precariously dangling off the back? Yes there are lots of British marina mice cluttering up marinas, in the Algarve and the med but I am not one of them.
 

daveg45

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Understand your points.

At a boat show you meet Marketing and Sales rather than designers and users (unless you went to see Concerto of the forums Westerly - a real boat!). For me I would want designed in features and simple easy to maintain and repair systems of top quality. My boat is 30 years old and already has more electrics than house and car combined! As an example Ovni appeared to do this well at least in the past.

Spare yourself the cost of the entry ticket and go for a walk around your local marina. All shapes and sizes but if you get talking there are usually really experienced people and their boats. And there isn't one answer to most questions. I learn more from that than magazines and boat shows.

oh yes I came across Concero and its self proclaimed PBO (poor bloody owner). Westerley_ a real boat? well a real billy no mates boat maybe. Whatever you think of Westerly is fine by me.
 

Graham376

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Really not sure what you are insinuating with your comment to be honest. Are you suggesting the only way to go ocean sailing is on an old beaten up old steel shit ship. Or an old Moody maybe with a dinghy precariously dangling off the back? Yes there are lots of British marina mice cluttering up marinas, in the Algarve and the med but I am not one of them.

What I'm saying is that many boats of all types are doing circumnavigations, not necessarily expensive or modern and it would appear the modern beamy flat bottomed performance boats seen at boat shows are in a minority for that purpose.
 

westernman

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What I'm saying is that many boats of all types are doing circumnavigations, not necessarily expensive or modern and it would appear the modern beamy flat bottomed performance boats seen at boat shows are in a minority for that purpose.
I guess there wasnt a Volvo Ocean Race boat at the show.
 

Sailfree

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All boats are a compromise and the best set of compromises results in the preferred boat that you buy.

All other boats are rubbish as dont suit your set of compromises unless a very similar type of boat.

For me still happy with my 43' jeanneau deck saloon which we bought when we heard they were going to stop making them. Ours was one of the last ones build before being replaced by a lighter more "modern" design!
 

geem

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For the first time in 10 years I am in the UK in September and thought I would take an inspirational trip to the Southampton Boat show. The annual 'do I, should I, could I' change the boat this year. Each year I go through the same thought processes and each year just end up working with what I have got. I have to say what I saw was quite depressing and whatever happened to Discovery Yachts? It took me a while to realise I was on a rebranded Southerly. As a boat it is ok I guess if you are sub 6ft in stature but at 6'2" tall it felt cramped especially round the saloon table situated above the lifting keel. So moving swiftly on to the pontoons the next offering was the retro styled Rustler 42 with its narrow transom small cockpit limited el fresco dining and socialising space. OK I guess if you want to sail around the UK waters in it but I have no ideal why anyone would want to do that. On the stern was a hydrovane self steering and watt&sea hydro generator. The guy in the cockpit flogging it was immediately disparaging about ALL the other boats on the pontoon stating the rustler was the only one with an incapsulated keel. First rule of sales. DO NOT DIS THE COMPETITION. Oh but wait a minute, he clearly believed he had no competition. He clearly believed the Ruslter was the dogs bollocks of boats " How do you power this boat long distance sailing" I asked. "there is no space to put any solar panels in-fact there is barely space to sit and eat". his answer was to to suggest flexi panels forward of the spray hood and the 'high power' alternator for battery charging. A quick lift of the engine compartment revealed an engine shoehorned into the available space with completely inadequate compact stock alternator. How that could be upgraded `i have no idea. Power would be a challenge if you didn't want to burn fossil fuel to make water and keep your freshly caught fish frozen for sure. I can't remember the price tag on the Rustler other than it was eye watering. Nice quality woodwork though. Taking on unfamiliar crew for 15 to 20 day atlantic crossing on it would be.... well a bit cramped.

It is important to take off those 'blue water boat' goggles and think about what you want from a boat. If you intent leaving the med playground and do some ocean sailing you need to think about what you want at the other side. The time at anchor will be more than time crossing oceans. how will you get in and out of the dinghy (which will probably be bigger and more capable than your 2.5m powered by an air-cooled hairdryer . How and where to store the dinghy that has a rigid hull and decent engine where you won't find it missing in the morning. Where to store SCUBA bottles and a dive compressor. A bathing platform to get on and off the paddle board. If you intend staying onboard in the tropics during hurricane season it will not be long before you wish you had air-conditioning and a generator powerful enough to run it. A Fridge and freezer in the galley. This is a small list but not sure the Rustler ticks many of those boxes for me. For that amount of money I would want more waterline length and more hull speed and more capacity.

So moving on to the French offerings (and I will stick Baveria and Hansa in with this lot) and I didn't feel I was on a boat at all. Ok it looked like a boat with a pointy end and a mast. Even a boom. But where is the mainsheet traveler? Don't people sail anymore? OK nice layout if tied to a pontoon but why would anyone propose putting the galley along the far bulkhead? How anything can be passed to the cockpit without spilling it I have no idea. So maybe I bought one of the last production boats back in 2008 before they all stared making floating caravans because that is clearly what they have become.

The only boat that got my attention and had any potential of prizing the Yorkshire cash out of me was Contest. Beautiful, spacious and clearly capable. But way out of my price range although the Contest at the show was 55ft I think. I am not a lover of centre cockpit boats mainly because I can't stand up in them unless they are big. I can't even stand up in th cockpit of an Oyster 46 because the bimini under the boom restricts headroom.

it seems my old boat will carry me across the pacific, unless i consider a catamaran maybe but then i will have completely lost the plot.

Maybe you guys can point me towards what i am looking for. i find myself turning into the typical old git saying "oh they don't make 'em like they use to do they! but you know what? they don't. Shocking especially when you consider the price tag of this floating garbage which one day will become an environmental issue before its time i suspect.


So lets forget talk of Ted Brewers comfort factor or angles of vanishing stability and I am not interested in stories of people bashing to windward in the med in strong winds and short choppy seas destroying the charter boat they have hired. Those people don't belong at a helm of a boat. The what if's and concerns most people trade wind sailing long distance are, What if the engine fails, fridge fails, autopilot fails, water maker fails etc.
Well for us if the engine fails we sail. We don't use the engine for charging. We have tonnes of solar, a a Duogen, diesel genset, spare Autopilot, two fridges, Windpilot if we don't want to use Lecky autopilot. Watermaker is super simple no electronic 200l/h unit. We have a spare HP pump.
We also have an 800litre water tank that will easily get us across the pond without using the watermaker. I think I have it covered?
 

daveg45

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All boats are a compromise and the best set of compromises results in the preferred boat that you buy.

All other boats are rubbish as dont suit your set of compromises unless a very similar type of boat.

For me still happy with my 43' jeanneau deck saloon which we bought when we heard they were going to stop making them. Ours was one of the last ones build before being replaced by a lighter more "modern" design!
43 jeanneau was on my list back in 2007. nice boat. not so nice now
 

daveg45

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Like we are going to take advice from someone who sunk and refloated his own command countless times a day for a living....
:rolleyes: ;)
there seems to be an intriguing story here. Any more info on that one? Not the same guy with a seastream holed up in la Caruna 12 years ago by any chance?
 

daveg45

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Well for us if the engine fails we sail. We don't use the engine for charging. We have tonnes of solar, a a Duogen, diesel genset, spare Autopilot, two fridges, Windpilot if we don't want to use Lecky autopilot. Watermaker is super simple no electronic 200l/h unit. We have a spare HP pump.
We also have an 800litre water tank that will easily get us across the pond without using the watermaker. I think I have it covered?
Well such a heavy boat will be a bit heavy on the amps. Especially if is a hydraulic autopilot. Have far have you sailed it may I ask?
 
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