Rappey
Well-known member
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90 mph sailing record.
- Thread starter Rappey
- Start date
Neeves
Well-known member
Watching kite surfers the fact they have a board is sometimes incidental the person and board are lifted completely from the water for a considerable distance and time - they are flying rather than 'boating'. I imagine with a large enough kite they would just be a hang glider - though how fast they can travel no idea.
Your picture might suggest much of the lift is coming from the kite.
Interesting that the water is flat, almost glassy - no indication of wind at all.
Jonathan
Your picture might suggest much of the lift is coming from the kite.
Interesting that the water is flat, almost glassy - no indication of wind at all.
Jonathan
Wing Mark
Well-known member
Yes, it's a sailing vessel.
The key is it gets its power from the speed difference between the air and the water.
A hang glider only gets power by losing height or finding a thermal.
A balloon is just blown along, still relative to the air.
All the lift comes from the kite, the foil in the water opposes the lift.
Unlike a foiling kite board where the rider's weight is upwind of the board.
The key is it gets its power from the speed difference between the air and the water.
A hang glider only gets power by losing height or finding a thermal.
A balloon is just blown along, still relative to the air.
All the lift comes from the kite, the foil in the water opposes the lift.
Unlike a foiling kite board where the rider's weight is upwind of the board.
cherod
Well-known member
logical direction for americas cup
Wing Mark
Well-known member
Doesn't keep enough gorillas busy!
Birdseye
Well-known member
No it isnt a sailing vessel any more than kitesurfing is a sailing vessel. But does the label matter? Its an interesting idea and as usual I end up wondering where the French obsession with boats / water / sailing / kites comes from.
Thistle
Well-known member
If it's not a sailing vessel, do IRPCS apply when you - briefly - meet one? What rules apply when two of these meet?
Rappey
Well-known member
Both Oxford and Cambridge definitions of a sailing boat is a boat propelled by sails.
LittleSister
Well-known member
ColRegs 'Rule 3
. . . (c) The term “sailing vessel” means any vessel under sail provided that propelling machinery, if fitted, is not being used.'
Seems to me that it straightforwardly meets that definition.
. . . (c) The term “sailing vessel” means any vessel under sail provided that propelling machinery, if fitted, is not being used.'
Seems to me that it straightforwardly meets that definition.
steveinnice
N/A
But what is the definition of a "sail" If I attach 2 huge goods parachutes to the bow and get them up, am I sailing or been dragged? . I would only be able to go downwind + or - a few degrees.
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LittleSister
Well-known member
In my view they would obviously be sails.
Why wouldn't they be? What's the difference between that and a spinnaker, apart from the length of the running rigging?
All any of our sails do is drag us along. All that changes are their shapes, and the arrangements of sticks and strings by which their 'drag' pulls the boat along.
steveinnice
N/A
I just thought that there would be a definition of what constitutes a sail. Playing the devils advocate here., if that parachute was on a boat in a race it could in theory be let out on a 100mt. line and give it a 100 Mt. advantage. I know nothing about racing rules so it might be a moot point. I've worked enough with legal types to know if you can stretch the definition of something some smart bottomed legal eagle will find a way.
LittleSister
Well-known member
Not in the ColRegs, it would therefore be taken to be the ordinary, everyday definition of the word. In interpreting that, a court would have regard to dictionary definitions, such as 'A shaped piece of material extended on the rigging of a vessel so as to catch the wind and cause it to propel the vessel through the water.' (Shorter Oxford English Dictionary).
Rappey
Well-known member
One is attached to a mast or spar, the other is not ?
steveinnice
N/A
That's how I would interpret the definition. A sail is defined as "a shaped piece of material extended on the rigging of a vessel so as to catch the wind and cause it to propel the vessel through the water" that must be connected to a part of the vessel ( mast or fixed rigging. ) with rigging not longer than is necessary to attach it to the said vessel safely edit : at at least one point of contact.
LittleSister
Well-known member
There is nothing saying the rigging has to be rigid, or of any particular length. The string is as much the rigging as is the sticks (which is why it is called running rigging and standing rigging).
I don't understand why you have a problem with this, or why you are clutching at straws and inventing your own definitions to avoid the obvious conclusion.
I don't understand why you have a problem with this, or why you are clutching at straws and inventing your own definitions to avoid the obvious conclusion.
TLouth7
Active member
That is because this is a rather low quality render, not a photo of an actual vessel.
steveinnice
N/A
I was hoping to get 2 pedants to take the hook and run with it . I didn't envisage I would be one of them.
seagoggles
New member
This is a fascinating debate.
Foremost, I'm more fascinated by the technology and always like ideas that challenge limits and know-how.
Second, I'm not sure dictionary definitions are too applicable to the issue. I understand their utility, but in any advanced-level research or debate, regardless of subject or field, dictionary definitions in certain contexts generally became increasingly fallible. Language has always been as much of a benefit as a hurdle, as have ideas and principles. The obvious example is hull speed, which is clearly a solid mathematical principle, but isn't quite as definite as it was once held to be.
When combining these aspects - the peculiarities of language and the aging and applicability of ideas - more questions will emerge such as "is this a vessel?" and "If so, does it have a hull?" That could easily descend into "what's a hull?" and so on. I think the key to appreciate such ideas as best as possible, is to know that change is always active, but the relationship between cause and effect can be complicated - e.g. does technology change language (e.g. the 747 being a "Jumbo Jet"), or does language change technology (e.g. "Is this boat?"). If approaching the issue from these angles, I think these ideas really become valuable to everyone regardless of their opinions/positions.
Foremost, I'm more fascinated by the technology and always like ideas that challenge limits and know-how.
Second, I'm not sure dictionary definitions are too applicable to the issue. I understand their utility, but in any advanced-level research or debate, regardless of subject or field, dictionary definitions in certain contexts generally became increasingly fallible. Language has always been as much of a benefit as a hurdle, as have ideas and principles. The obvious example is hull speed, which is clearly a solid mathematical principle, but isn't quite as definite as it was once held to be.
When combining these aspects - the peculiarities of language and the aging and applicability of ideas - more questions will emerge such as "is this a vessel?" and "If so, does it have a hull?" That could easily descend into "what's a hull?" and so on. I think the key to appreciate such ideas as best as possible, is to know that change is always active, but the relationship between cause and effect can be complicated - e.g. does technology change language (e.g. the 747 being a "Jumbo Jet"), or does language change technology (e.g. "Is this boat?"). If approaching the issue from these angles, I think these ideas really become valuable to everyone regardless of their opinions/positions.
steveinnice
N/A
That's where I would have gone if I had continued ,probably not as well put as you though. I was trying to say ,as the devils advocate, that some clever dick would let out a 'chute on 1 or 2 hundred mts of line to gain an advantage in a race. Highly competitive sports will use any nuance of term to its advantage. The last Sydney to Hobart race proves that . An objection was upheld when a boat wasn't in radio contact for a period of time. I would have thought that wouldn't alter the result but someone scoured the rules to gain an advantage.
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