90/180 days

syvictoria

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Sorry I didn't have a link to hand. It was a document from 2018 or 2019 by ECAS in their Knowledge Centre on Freedom of Movement in the EU. Freedom of Movement in the EU | ECAS

I found the document.
https://ecas.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/ECAS-Study-on-Freedom-of-Movement-in-the-EU.pdf

The right itself is not time limited, apart from still being married (or partner) and able to supply proof. It seems that it was not unusual for officials to demand a recent document. I imagine they feel happier that I'm still married and didn't divorce. Of course the certificate doesn't prove that to be the case, it just keeps them happy.

I mentioned that I had recent personal experience in this matter. I have been told directly and in great detail that we need a recent marriage certificate translated into Greek by an officially accepted source. The certificate they translate must be no more than 6 months old. I said that I'm pretty certain it isn't a real rule but the PDF and my experience indicate that is a requirement people might need to accept. I know that I will get a lot of grief if I don't comply. The person I'm dealing with has made that abundantly clear.

I have been told that my wife has two options. One in her own right under the Brexit agreement but that might fail. The second is as the wife of an EU citizen and that is just a matter of supplying all the required documentation regarding income, health cover and proof of marriage. I will bring a recent marriage certificate to Greece as it isn't worth arguing about and risking problems.

Thanks for providing the links. I think (hope!) that maybe we are at slightly cross purposes on this one. You are (I think) talking about requirements for applying to residency under FoM rules. I was talking about simply travelling with a spouse/partner. Hopefully the 3/6 month certificate issue won't be faced by those just encountering the odd official whilst long term/full time travelling. The thought of having to get a new certificate posted to you every 3 months whilst abroad is not an appealing one!
 

Mistroma

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Thanks for providing the links. I think (hope!) that maybe we are at slightly cross purposes on this one. You are (I think) talking about requirements for applying to residency under FoM rules. I was talking about simply travelling with a spouse/partner. Hopefully the 3/6 month certificate issue won't be faced by those just encountering the odd official whilst long term/full time travelling. The thought of having to get a new certificate posted to you every 3 months whilst abroad is not an appealing one!
I was actually covering both cases but my own experience relates to documentation for staying more than 90 days. The thread was about 90/180 day problems.

My wife does not require proof of marriage to enter EU countries, even if I wasn't an EU citizen. The PDF does mention the problem when entering some countries if the spouse is from a non-EU country and requires a visa. Many issues were discussed e.g. Requiring a visa when no requirement existed, refusing to issue a visa, delays, fees and refusals.

Bottom line:
If your spouse can enter a country in her own right then a marriage certificate is irrelevant.
If entry relies on marriage to an EU citizen then production of a newish marriage certificate is a possibility.

N.B. Problems were encountered in many countries including Germany and UK (pre-2019), not just countries like Greece.

I just noticed a section that might interest Vic. It sounds as if de-facto partnership is acceptable but proof can be a problem.

3.2.1.5. De facto partners have difficulty proving a “durable relationship”
Some de facto partners reported not being allowed to apply for residence documents because of lack of proof of a ‘durable relationship’, despite providing extensive evidence of communal life and in one case even having a child together. This has been an issue in France as well as in Spain.
 

sailaboutvic

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I was actually covering both cases but my own experience relates to documentation for staying more than 90 days. The thread was about 90/180 day problems.

My wife does not require proof of marriage to enter EU countries, even if I wasn't an EU citizen. The PDF does mention the problem when entering some countries if the spouse is from a non-EU country and requires a visa. Many issues were discussed e.g. Requiring a visa when no requirement existed, refusing to issue a visa, delays, fees and refusals.

Bottom line:
If your spouse can enter a country in her own right then a marriage certificate is irrelevant.
If entry relies on marriage to an EU citizen then production of a newish marriage certificate is a possibility.

N.B. Problems were encountered in many countries including Germany and UK (pre-2019), not just countries like Greece.

I just noticed a section that might interest Vic. It sounds as if de-facto partnership is acceptable but proof can be a problem.

3.2.1.5. De facto partners have difficulty proving a “durable relationship”
Some de facto partners reported not being allowed to apply for residence documents because of lack of proof of a ‘durable relationship’, despite providing extensive evidence of communal life and in one case even having a child together. This has been an issue in France as well as in Spain.
The problem we have Mike is because we never lived on land together there no prove we ever lived to gather let a lone how long we been in a relationship.
Although what we do have is photos prove , there no dated but clearly you can see we 11 years older from when the first photos where taken .
Nether of us feel getting married to get around the the rules is an option we should be force to take,

Lucky unlike many here I not parniod of being locked up or banned from the EU if caught staying over the 90 days,
Well not this year or next anyway , after that who knows , who know if I'm still around to worry about it or if I'm still cruising
you met me so you know im not the timmy type, I'm more then happy to take my chances .
 

Graham376

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Lucky unlike many here I not parniod of being locked up or banned from the EU if caught staying over the 90 days,
Well not this year or next anyway , after that who knows , who know if I'm still around to worry about it or if I'm still cruising
you met me so you know im not the timmy type, I'm more then happy to take my chances .

I think it's best to know what could happen but I tend to just deal with things if they become a problem. We're still in a funny paperwork situation after 50+ years of marriage, with all my wife's Portuguese paperwork still in her maiden name. She can no longer travel to UK on her Portuguese citizen card but has no residence in Portugal if travelling on UK passport in married name. Her driving license is UK issued and can't be exchanged as she's not resident in that name. Loads of other theoretical issues but to sort everything would be a worse nightmare than just dealing with problems as and when they occur. Why worry? :)
 
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sailaboutvic

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I think it's best to know what could happen but I tend to just deal with things if they become a problem. We're still in a funny paperwork situation after 50+ years of marriage, with all my wife's Portuguese paperwork still in her maiden name. She can no longer travel to UK on her Portuguese citizen card but has no residence in Portugal if travelling on UK passport in married name. Her driving license is UK issued and can't be exchanged as she's not resident in that name. Loads of other theoretical issues but to sort everything would be a worse nightmare than just dealing with problems as and when they occur. Why worry? :)
Surly your wife have dual nat?

The day will come when living aboard full time may not be possible and in the begin it wasn't a problem we could move back to the UK ,
but now things are so easy she probably won't be able to stay longer then 180 days a year so brexit have made Things much more complicated,

Has for knowing what can happen , I'm very awhere what can happen,
don't think I'm burning my head in the sand.
I'm also sure I can work around if it did happen , which is why I'm not stressing .
One thing for sure if the brown stuff hit the fan ,
it won't make any difference to my life style and as a full time liveaboard in the EU.
I have a plain :)
 

geem

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Useful info, thank you. Keep us posted.
I'm hearing that here in Portugal there is some sort of amnesty up to the end of the year regarding the 90 days. But I've not seen anything official about it.
We have been told the same by SEF
 

geem

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Unilateral action by Portugal, which year, 2021 or 22❓ Hopefully the thin edge of the wedge??
2021 but we have also heard that due to the complete chaos that is Portuguese officialdom, they may well extend it another three months since there is no replacement for SEF yet
 

greeny

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They've (Portugal) just extended the validity of uk driving licenses until the end of 2022 due to the backlog of exchange licenses after brexit. So it's its entirely possible that many other deadlines will be getting extended where there are large outstanding waiting times.
SEF duties are being split between several other agencies as has already been said, This is effective from January 2022, and will take time to get in place. The existing problems with SEF will not go away overnight and will take time to resolve (if ever). So the only road open to them is to extend the deadlines. Just my opinion.
 

Clancy Moped

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They've (Portugal) just extended the validity of uk driving licenses until the end of 2022 due to the backlog of exchange licenses after brexit. So it's its entirely possible that many other deadlines will be getting extended where there are large outstanding waiting times.
SEF duties are being split between several other agencies as has already been said, This is effective from January 2022, and will take time to get in place. The existing problems with SEF will not go away overnight and will take time to resolve (if ever). So the only road open to them is to extend the deadlines. Just my opinion.
Also here in Spain till the end of this year, backlogs to blame.
 

geem

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They've (Portugal) just extended the validity of uk driving licenses until the end of 2022 due to the backlog of exchange licenses after brexit. So it's its entirely possible that many other deadlines will be getting extended where there are large outstanding waiting times.
SEF duties are being split between several other agencies as has already been said, This is effective from January 2022, and will take time to get in place. The existing problems with SEF will not go away overnight and will take time to resolve (if ever). So the only road open to them is to extend the deadlines. Just my opinion.
The problem comes that if you don't have residency, you haven't applied because it impossible to do so at the moment, your 90 days has expired, assuming you cleared in and you need to leave Portugal then come back, you will be stopped at border control. That was our concern. We have elderly parents and have already made one trip back for a family funeral.
We have knocked the residency thing on the head and will head for the Caribbean shortly
 

kingfisher

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If Spain goes this way, other countries will follow.

If individual countries decide to exercise their sovereignty over this it hard to see what Brussels can do.

They can't. A Schengen country cannot waive the 90/180 rule. What they can do is create a long-term tourist visa. But they can't waive the visa outside of the 90/180 rule.
 

westernman

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They can't. A Schengen country cannot waive the 90/180 rule. What they can do is create a long-term tourist visa. But they can't waive the visa outside of the 90/180 rule.
You are right - but may be misleading.

A Schengen country can issue visas for their own country for their own purposes to particular countries. Such as special tourist visas for their country (not for Schengen).
For instance, Portugal does this for Brazilian workers.
 

kingfisher

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You are right - but may be misleading.

A Schengen country can issue visas for their own country for their own purposes to particular countries. Such as special tourist visas for their country (not for Schengen).
For instance, Portugal does this for Brazilian workers.
A Schengen country can issue a visa for people with red hair who eat haggis. Or people with bad vision. But that is a visa. With requirements, and administration and prior approval. "just get in the car and take the ferry across"-visa waiver is only possible under the Schengen 90/180 limit.

Schengen countries can create "long stay" visas. But those then only apply to that country. If Spain ever issues a 6 month yachting visa (or performing arts visa), it would only apply to Spain. Travelling to France on that visa would still be possible, but only within the 90/180 day rule.

Schengen did not remove countries' sovereignty (as some led to believe here). It just created a special common visa, the Schengen Visa, applicable in 28 countries.
 

billskip

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A Schengen country can issue a visa for people with red hair who eat haggis. Or people with bad vision. But that is a visa. With requirements, and administration and prior approval. "just get in the car and take the ferry across"-visa waiver is only possible under the Schengen 90/180 limit.

Schengen countries can create "long stay" visas. But those then only apply to that country. If Spain ever issues a 6 month yachting visa (or performing arts visa), it would only apply to Spain. Travelling to France on that visa would still be possible, but only within the 90/180 day rule.

Schengen did not remove countries' sovereignty (as some led to believe here). It just created a special common visa, the Schengen Visa, applicable in 28 countries.
And am I mistaken or did I misread that face and fingerprint scans are going to be introduced by the EU in May?
 
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