2 heads better than 1???

[Spirit (of Glenans)]

Look at it the other way round. You have a wet locker, a space designed to have enough height and space to hang oilies in in a manner that actually lets them dry out. Basically that's a reasonable size space that is built to handle water flying around and dripping on the floor, it ideally is warm to help things dry out. It's near the companionway as you want to shuck your wet gear as soon as you are below. Why on earth wouldn't you put a heads in there as well given that it has exactly the same requirements. The only issue is that you can't use the heads if it's full of foul weather gear so you need another heads which, as a bonus, gives you redundancy on the one piece of kit that no-one wants to fail.

Many people are under the mistaken impression that heat helps clothes to dry, when in fact cold air is drier. What is required is ventilation, to carry away the water vapour. Heat helps damp clothes become mouldy.

 

[jimi]

2 Heads, one with holding tank the other straight to sea. We've got 2 on our s38 and I wouldn't be without them.

 

[Laser310]

The layout I like for a ~40ft boat is: single aft cabin, with a single head, aft where the other aft cabin would have gone.

These aft heads are often _much_ larger than the head in any other 40ft configuration - often they have a separate shower stall, which is great for showers.., obviously.., but also makes great place to hang wet foul weather gear on passage.

I guess the question is; how many people do you want on a 40ft cruising boat?

that layout gives two double cabins, so that's four.., and in a pinch you have the salon settees, so that's potentially six- which is more than enough.

you also get a huge locker behind the aft head.

i think once you get to say 43ft, the second head makes sense

 

[rotrax]

Our boat has a large central 'Jack and Jill' heads and shower, Easy access from both cabins.

Never had a privacy issue. We often have guests aboard.

As Tigger Two says :- "Privacy - on a sub 50 footer!"

Nice to have, but small boats dont allow privacy as you expect it ashore.

 

[geem]

Many people are under the mistaken impression that heat helps clothes to dry, when in fact cold air is drier. What is required is ventilation, to carry away the water vapour. Heat helps damp clothes become mouldy.

Sorry, but that's not correct. Heat very much helps to dry clothes. Outside air at zero degrees C and 100% saturation has very low g of moisture per kg of air. You can't dry clothes with this air as it's fully saturated. Heat that air from zero to 20degC and that air will now have an RH of 26%. It is now very dry air and will dry clothes extremely well.
In a boat you need to bring outside air in so it is heated and mixed with the warm damp air in the boat. This will lower the boat RH and help to dry clothes.

 

[grumpy_o_g]

Many people are under the mistaken impression that heat helps clothes to dry, when in fact cold air is drier. What is required is ventilation, to carry away the water vapour. Heat helps damp clothes become mouldy.

As you say, ventilation is needed - hot air will hold far more moisture but that moisture needs to be moved outside to allow warm dry air (created by warming cold dry air) to replace it. So yes, you're 100% correct, I should have added well-ventilated to the list - which is yet another shared feature with a heads oddly enough.

 

[davidpbo]

Some people have conditions that make frequent use of of the toilet a necessity. If the loss of space was acceptable

We have 1 head on a 41 footer. The previous owner had Dehler convert the second into a small work room, which is really useful. But..
The only problem we have found is if you are in a marina for any period of time, say storm bound. With 2 heads, one could be designated for Number 2's into the tank, the other for pee only through the hull, that way you do not fill up the tank so quickly, and then find yourself trudging up to the communial loos at god knows what time

As someone who's (Small) boat had a Porta Potti in a separate heads compartment, if I had the luxury of 2 heads I would have the main compartment configured as shower/heads with holding tank and the other as a heads with a Porta Potti.

The reason being to that if storm bound in a marina or working/staying on the boat on the hard it is very convenient to have a toilet with a portable tank that can be emptied. Providing you are not squeamish about emptying it.

Please don't tell me that people on all those boats in all those marinas always either walk to the toilet block at all times of day/night and weather, or always use the holding tank for their no 2s.

 

[Cosmo86]

Many thoughts on here but in case not covered. a couple of thoughts based on our experience with a 12.8m boat from 2015. The installing of second heads might shorten the length of berth in forecabin? It would have on our boat. Looking at your plan adding the heads puts a hard wall at bed head . This might make it harder to clamber on board the bed if there are 2 of you . If an athletic couple with a toddler climbing in and out over a sleeping body alongside might not be an issue but for older users it can be an issue. In summary bed access is much simpler at night without the heads. Clearly not as good as wal around access favoured by larger vessels but better than a bulkhead . As others have said,more to go wrong in heads 2 but should you ever want to fit a water maker you have an existing hull hole through hull you might reuse . Ultimately it might depend on your sailing plans and if more crew likely and sailing destinations. We sail happily as a family four with one head though but longest passage so far would be less than say 15 hours or so . You might speak to a few brokers to see which is more in demand . Remember though 2 heads and showers might lead to more water consumption by crew so can you fit and extra water tank ? If you keep one heads you can still use the shower area for wet gear and just install an Eber heater with heads vent and buy a new dehumidifier which is good at also trying kit or hang the kit in the cockpit tent you can buy with the savings made from not having second heads. Lots to spend money on a new boat but have you been on a real version of each type of your proposed model? Sometimes pictures etc don’t convey the change if feel /ambience etc . I guess if you are planning sailing with strangers though a second heads might have attractions in terms of allocation of cleaning duties - a lot turns in this area on if it’s a family boat or one where you might regularly go away with third parties whom you know but not well for a few weeks holiday to say France etc.

I have seen both layouts in the flesh. The 1 head version was at the Southampton boat show and I was really taken by the space in the forcabin without the second head. The weekend just gone I saw the standard lay out with the 2 heads. It is a lot more cramped.

My view is the cabin is there just to be slept in so being a little cramped isn’t the end of the world if the advantages of 2 heads really exists.

I’m mid 30s but sadly won’t be forever so the ease of getting in and out of the forcabin birth has def been on my mind

Most of the time it will be just the 3 of us out sailing. I’m not proud but I am happy to admit I can snore like a walrus so the 3rd cabin is for me so my loving wife can get some sleep.

We will have others come onboard but mostly family and my friends I have known long enough to be classed as family so lack of privacy isn’t really a problem.

The usual crew I sail with would be happy with a fridge to keep the beer cold so 2 heads doesn’t even come into the list of things they care about.

If the 2 heads was not the standard layout Iprobably wouldn’t opt for it but as the standard lay out I have to make a conscious decision to remove it which for some reason is really confusing me and my partner.

I don’t want to spend more time servicing and fixing than sailing so need to really think about how we will use the space. I’m conscious it’s a decisions we will live with for the next 10 years.

 

[Slowboat35]

Upon seeing the title of this thread my first and instant thought was of a Chubby Brown sketch where he was listing what he ate each day to the doctor - who quickly devined a related problem...

Perhaps he should have been prescribed a bendytoy!

 

[SaltIre]

The layout I like for a ~40ft boat is: single aft cabin, with a single head, aft where the other aft cabin would have gone.
These aft heads are often _much_ larger than the head in any other 40ft configuration - often they have a separate shower stall, which is great for showers.., obviously.., but also makes great place to hang wet foul weather gear on passage.
I guess the question is; how many people do you want on a 40ft cruising boat?
that layout gives two double cabins, so that's four.., and in a pinch you have the salon settees, so that's potentially six- which is more than enough.
you also get a huge locker behind the aft head.

i think once you get to say 43ft, the second head makes sense

Layout 5 is available but isn't included in the poll! ?
OP has decided layout 1 or 4...
Dufour 390 - Available though UK Agents for Dufour Yachts

 

[dancrane]

Think I prefer plan 2, also not offered in this thread...it provides privacy for a conventionally-proportioned couple in the bows, and a bed and heads in the stern for someone as wide as they are tall, who may sometimes prefer to sleep beside the lavatory. ?

But credit to Dufour, for offering so many options.
.

 

[SaltIre]

You do wonder whether the lavatory in layout 5 is only useable on starboard tack; or is there a harness arrangement or leg extenders provided to ensure one's arse remains above the recepticle if on port? ?
At least in layout 2 there is a fwd lavy for use on port tack.

 

[Daydream believer]

There is comment above about the Jabsco pump failing. I have found , over the years, that it does not fail catastrophically & one can always have a spare maintenance set available to replace in time. I have replaced the complete pump once in 18 years.
What has caught me out are blockages & this often happens right by the seacock. So simply disconnecting the pipe at sea & draining the contents of a near full holding tank into the bilges . Then opening the valve to get the inrush of water to blow the blockage back thus adding more to ones woes. ( yes, done all of that, been there, seen the film etc etc) is not fun
The other thing that happens is a build up of calcium in the pipes. I have tried the usual hydrochloric acid trick but it does not clear parts such as the elbow just before the holding tank etc & I have had to replace the main hose twice. I am aware of the need to clear the pipe after use, but it still plagues me.
So bearing in mind these problems I would always have the 2 heads options if available.
However, the forward heads would rarely be used unless needed. Certainly not under way. I suffer from sea sickness & would want to go below , straight into the heads amidships, where motion is the least & then get back on deck ASAP. I would not want a forward heads where I would have to struggle forward, get into a confined, sometimes hot, space, get my kit off, whilst being bounced up & down. The only advantage being that I could brace myself.
Another point is headroom. My hanse has a really excellent heads & was a selling point. At 6ft 6 ins I can almost stand upright to pee in the bowl. When I tried the Elan there is a bulkhead over the bowl preventing me getting anywhere near to it. So unless one was no more than 5 ft tall, or had the appendage of a porn star,( Heard about them not seen them) one could not use it in the normal fashion.

The point of this being that when chosing 2 heads one needs to study the design to see if both can actually be used.

 

[geem]

Our boat has a large central 'Jack and Jill' heads and shower, Easy access from both cabins.

Never had a privacy issue. We often have guests aboard.

As Tigger Two says :- "Privacy - on a sub 50 footer!"

Nice to have, but small boats dont allow privacy as you expect it ashore.

Depends on design. Our 44ft boat interior layout is nothing like the layouts on modern boats. The layout is optimised for two couples.
An aft cabin with ensuite and forepeak adjacent to the front heads. In the evening the door from the saloon into the front of the boat can be closed such that the forepeak cabin, passageway and large front heads is separated from the saloon. In the aft cabin the door to the galley and saloon can be closed such that the aft cabin and ensuite are separated. The saloon and galley act as an isolated space between the two cabins. Lots of privacy. The 1 1/2 inch thick doors and bulkheads provide additional acoustic insulation so you can't hear what ever nocturnal activities are going on in the other end of the boat?

 

[geem]

There is comment above about the Jabsco pump failing. I have found , over the years, that it does not fail catastrophically & one can always have a spare maintenance set available to replace in time. I have replaced the complete pump once in 18 years.
What has caught me out are blockages & this often happens right by the seacock. So simply disconnecting the pipe at sea & draining the contents of a near full holding tank into the bilges . Then opening the valve to get the inrush of water to blow the blockage back thus adding more to ones woes. ( yes, done all of that, been there, seen the film etc etc) is not fun
The other thing that happens is a build up of calcium in the pipes. I have tried the usual hydrochloric acid trick but it does not clear parts such as the elbow just before the holding tank etc & I have had to replace the main hose twice. I am aware of the need to clear the pipe after use, but it still plagues me.
So bearing in mind these problems I would always have the 2 heads options if available.
However, the forward heads would rarely be used unless needed. Certainly not under way. I suffer from sea sickness & would want to go below , straight into the heads amidships, where motion is the least & then get back on deck ASAP. I would not want a forward heads where I would have to struggle forward, get into a confined, sometimes hot, space, get my kit off, whilst being bounced up & down. The only advantage being that I could brace myself.
Another point is headroom. My hanse has a really excellent heads & was a selling point. At 6ft 6 ins I can almost stand upright to pee in the bowl. When I tried the Elan there is a bulkhead over the bowl preventing me getting anywhere near to it. So unless one was no more than 5 ft tall, or had the appendage of a porn star,( Heard about them not seen them) one could not use it in the normal fashion.

The point of this being that when chosing 2 heads one needs to study the design to see if both can actually be used.

If you liveaboard your Jabsco loo gets way more use. We replaced them when we first got the boat in 2012. We then replaced them after five years as we were sick of having to change parts due to leaks. After numerous other parts replaced we ditched them for good earlier this year. Now on Lavacs.

 

[TiggerToo]

or had the appendage of a porn star,( Heard about them not seen them)

Allow me to let you into a little secret:

They shrink.

With age.

And low temperature.

Both factors affect most of us, when sailing long distances. In these climes.

 

[Daydream believer]

Allow me to let you into a little secret:
They shrink.
With age.
And low temperature.
Both factors affect most of us, when sailing long distances. In these climes.

So that explains why Cap sensible, Geems & co go on about the carribean so much. Now we know the real truth

 

[geem]

So that explains why Cap sensible, Geems & co go on about the carribean so much. Now we know the real truth

Nah, not old enough. Just retired early

 

[Doineann]

Some people have conditions that make frequent use of of the toilet a necessity. If the loss of space was acceptable


As someone who's (Small) boat had a Porta Potti in a separate heads compartment, if I had the luxury of 2 heads I would have the main compartment configured as shower/heads with holding tank and the other as a heads with a Porta Potti.

The reason being to that if storm bound in a marina or working/staying on the boat on the hard it is very convenient to have a toilet with a portable tank that can be emptied. Providing you are not squeamish about emptying it.

Please don't tell me that people on all those boats in all those marinas always either walk to the toilet block at all times of day/night and weather, or always use the holding tank for their no 2s.

On my walks up to communal loos in the early hours, I have often mused that a porta potti type arrangement would be a better idea than a holding tank which generally will fill in about 3 days (mind you, I am old and so visit the loo a lot!). I suppose not so good in say an enclosed anchorage.

Sadly you are correct about some people's use of loos, but I think most people are OK

 

[dancrane]

Not a very savoury subject, but might it be beneficial to have (for use with Porta-Potti-type conveniences) spare waste-tanks, so that having filled and removed one in the middle of the night, it needn't necessarily be emptied immediately at the shoreside point, to enable further use on board?

One could start a cellar, in a deep cockpit locker.