In out, in out, shake it all about - Olympic classes

st599

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One of the key drivers seems to be sustainable sport and sport that everyone can participate in. So not sure World Sailing were on to a winner here. They didn't follow the rules, haven't proven the format, didn't think about how it was to be broadcast and pressed on even when the issues were pointed out.

Will be interesting to see what happens if the German bid for 2032 gains traction. They have 14 cities in an area the same as LA, with enough stadia and hotels already. There plan seems to be to spend the money usually put in to stadiums on updating rail infrastructure - with the updates 1/2Billion people would live within 5 hours travel of the Olympics with no flights needed. Does mean the sailing would be at Kiel.
 

flaming

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The new offshore boat was a stupid idea right from the off.
Don't really agree with that.

Doublehanded sailing is a sector that has really taken off over the last decade or so. I think that done right it really could have been something special, but inevitably with world sailing involved it has not been done right.
 

Bobc

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I agree that shorthanded offshore racing is in the ascendancy, but just not right for the Olympics IMO.
 

flaming

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I agree that shorthanded offshore racing is in the ascendancy, but just not right for the Olympics IMO.
It wouldn't fit with the current mould of the Olympic sailing, sure.. But it would be quite a different event. The Marathon of the sailing event. It would immediately have stood out from all other Olympic events as being the longest and the only one where sleep deprivation is a factor.
But... It needed to be more than just a toss it out and see what happens. It needed huge support from WS, and a lot of seed money. It needed a fleet of boats available for a world championships and it needed a series set up from the word go. And it needed a full body of work to explain why "stadium security" wasn't applicable and that the IOC needed to change it's thinking for the event.
WS haven't even decided which boat it would be sailed in.

And now they are left with 6 weeks to come up with an alternative. This is really the excuse that the IOC have been looking for to take a medal away from sailing.
 

TernVI

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The olympics is an athletic event.
The 'air rowing' windsurfers, pumping Finns and all that fanning of sails in other classes fits in with that.
Hard to see how not getting any sleep in a leadmine fits in.

Was it going to be just one race?
Seems to me there might have been a strong element of luck.
I think the winner's Met expert would probably deserve the medal.
 

Laser310

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I never thought the DH distance event was a good fit for the Olympics.., and I like distance racing.., I'm a navigator.

As others have mentioned;

It's not athletic enough
distance racing undeniably has a larger luck factor than W/L
It's too equipment intensive - other Olympic classes are fairly elemental

Yes, DH is growing, and yes a mixed event is a good idea, but neither of those things alter my view that it is just fundamentally not an Olympic-type competition.

As a windsurfer, I'm happy to see the foiling boards go forward. They are still pretty elemental - not hugely different from, say, a bobsled. I've watched some of the videos of the first regattas in the olympic one design board and the competition looks great!
 

Ingwe

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I know it won't happen because this is a decision being taken at World Sailing / IOC level. But the obvious thing to do from a french perspective would be to use one of the one design fleets that are already in place - if available the easiest being the fleet of Archambault Grand Surprise yachts that are used each year for the student yachting world cup - there is a French company that owns 55 of them that are used for training and one design regattas. They could only get to Cat 3 so would have to be more of a coastal course, so you start off at Mont Saint Michelle to give an amazing background for the start and you finish at Les Sables to get a good crowd / fleet at the finish. As long as the French made sure they had a couple of their offshore superstars on their boat it would gain a huge amount of attention in France and in Olympic terms wouldn't cost very much at all.
 

ridgy

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I never thought the DH distance event was a good fit for the Olympics.., and I like distance racing.., I'm a navigator.

As others have mentioned;

It's not athletic enough
distance racing undeniably has a larger luck factor than W/L
It's too equipment intensive - other Olympic classes are fairly elemental

Yes, DH is growing, and yes a mixed event is a good idea, but neither of those things alter my view that it is just fundamentally not an Olympic-type competition.

As a windsurfer, I'm happy to see the foiling boards go forward. They are still pretty elemental - not hugely different from, say, a bobsled. I've watched some of the videos of the first regattas in the olympic one design board and the competition looks great!
Not to mention the impossibility of televising it and even if you did...one of them occasionally pulling a rope/looking at a computer screen/making a cup of tea/having a wank and the other one asleep.
What a complete joke.
 

TernVI

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Not to mention the impossibility of televising it and even if you did...one of them occasionally pulling a rope/looking at a computer screen/making a cup of tea/having a wank and the other one asleep.
What a complete joke.
Maybe it's the 'celebrity animal house TV' angle the olympics is missing?
 

dunedin

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The three shortlisted alternative events if the IOC put the kybosh on the two handed offshore event are:
* mens and womens kite surfing
* revert mixed 470 back to both mens and women’s 470 fleets
* two boat team racing in ICLA 6’s (Laser Radials in old speak)
Three submissions for alternative events proposal process for Paris 2024 approved by World Sailing

Not sure team racing is very effective in a singlehander without a jib - filling, flapping and backing of which is a large part of the close tactical cover.
Clearly could dream up much more imaginative events (as the did with the offshore race) and more modern classes - but these would immediately by ruled out by IOC as needs to have fleets of boats already available across the world, hence why things like 470 and Laser Radial feature here.
 

flaming

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Alternate reality

Latest updates, seems that reducing the size of the offshore area right down might be the get out clause that allows the doublehanded offshore event to go ahead. Makes sense to me. Get it in, prove it works and is popular, then gradually bring it what it really could be over a couple of cycles.

I like the idea of the OD manufacturer providing boats with identical rig settings. I'd just add a rule that says that as soon as the boat is announced any prospective competitor is absolutely banned from setting foot on that class except at official events and specified pre event training days. That should help reduce the advantage that the wealthy nations get.
 

ridgy

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Why should rig settings be identical? One of differentiators between boys and men in racing is setting up ones rig properly for the conditions.
 

flaming

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Why should rig settings be identical? One of differentiators between boys and men in racing is setting up ones rig properly for the conditions.
Put simply because if you are going to have the rigs tunable then you need every competitor to have been able to spend the time testing, changing, testing, in the exact type of boat to know the best settings.

When you're talking about a £200k+ boat, and really needing at least 2 for a proper tuning effort, you are really limiting the pool of nations that could mount a credible challenge. I agree with what you say about rig tuning being an important part of offshore sailing, but for this to be a success I think the pool of competitive entrants has to be as broad as possible, and the boats as equal as possible.

Even in the Olympics now there are classes where you turn up with a boat and is has to measure in and where the teams have spent years testing settings and sails etc, and events (laser) where the boats are supplied.

To be viable the offshore class really does have to be in supplied boats. So why not go the full step and make them all as identical as possible. As I say, I'd ban all the athletes from even setting foot on the chosen class outside of official events from the end of the previous olympics. And I'd change the boat every time.
 

ridgy

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I see your point but it simply reinforces what a nonsense the idea is, that the event is so incredibly expensive that only a handful of countries can do it.
A key aspect of Olympic sports is that one should be able to see it on TV, be inspired, and be able to go and do it. This is as far from that as you can possibly get.

Out of interest if it does go ahead, who is paying for this fleet of boats to be shipped to the venue, set up, and then packed up and taken away again?
 

st599

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It's also a nightmare for the TV schedules, you won't really be seeing anything live. That was why the close to shore, short medal races were introduced for other sailing events.
 

flaming

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I see your point but it simply reinforces what a nonsense the idea is, that the event is so incredibly expensive that only a handful of countries can do it.
A key aspect of Olympic sports is that one should be able to see it on TV, be inspired, and be able to go and do it. This is as far from that as you can possibly get.

If that's what you want, then you need to remove sailing from the Olympics entirely. And equestrian events. Probably shooting, rowing etc too.

It's simply the case that for equipment sports there is a financial barrier to entry. What is actually sad is that yacht racing is in many ways the most accessible part of the sport for many people. Sure every boat needs an owner paying the bills, but that owner needs a crew. And normally that crew has very low costs.

Out of interest if it does go ahead, who is paying for this fleet of boats to be shipped to the venue, set up, and then packed up and taken away again?
I think the plan is for the manufacturer to offer the boats, then sell them afterwards.
 

flaming

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It's also a nightmare for the TV schedules, you won't really be seeing anything live. That was why the close to shore, short medal races were introduced for other sailing events.
The point here was, I think, to rely more on trackers and snippets, than live TV. I think it would be rather good, don't forget that during the period of the race there would be significant periods of time when it was the only event taking place. And every country's daily broadcast could start with "and here's what's happened in the offshore sailing overnight".
 

ridgy

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If that's what you want, then you need to remove sailing from the Olympics entirely. And equestrian events. Probably shooting, rowing etc too.
Not at all, you can join a sailing club for little money and get cracking in a club laser. Likewise for shooting and rowing. Not sure about horses. Of course to do it competitively will take some money but you work your way up and still within the realms of being paid for out of a modest income.
There is no mechanism to go double handed offshore racing unless you are wealthy or have a wealthy friend.
 
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