Furler or sock?

[zoidberg]

I spent half a morning today, in a frontal-rainy Plymouth, inquiring about 'A' sails' shapes and gear.... from two very local sailmakers. I got two very divergent, honest views. Am I surprised? I am, however, confused.... So let me throw open the question to this congregation.

I'm refurbing a 27-foot 'last-century' long keeler, including sails.... one of which should be an A-sail on a shortish jib-boom, probably of about A2 calibre. My arrangements are for single-handing ease-of handling - especially avoiding foredeck work in rising breeze and gathering night - and I had it in mind that certainly included having the A-sail on a decent furler.

"OK", said the one s'maker. "Roll it up, and drop it - rolled - onto the deck. Deal with it easily, then."

"Not happy with that", said t'other. "You'll still need to go on the foredeck to sort it all out - frequently. You'll end up removing the furler kit and selling it on YBW...... What you want is a snuffer."

Now, I'm no longer agile enough to be wrestling with exhuberant wet sailcloth., up to my armpits in intermittent green stuff, solo. Been there, done that, got the torn fingernails and broken nose..... I've already sold the provided spi-pole and bought beer. That bridge is burnt behind me. It so happens I already have a decent Bartels Gennex continuous-line furling kit for a larger boat, and I also have a sock of sorts. One of them has to go.

So what's the consensus?

 

[flaming]

I don't understand the second's comment. It's not like a snuffer removes the need to go on the foredeck. In fact, that's my most major issue with snuffers, in that when it's all gone wrong you actually have to go onto the foredeck to drop the kite. With either a standard mainhatch drop or a furler (assuming it works) then you don't have to go onto the foredeck in the immediate crisis.

 

[Lightwave395]

A furler if you're a millionaire, a snuffer if you're not...

 

[zoidberg]

A furler if you're a millionaire, a snuffer if you're not...

Since I have both ( neither intended for this boat, but snaffled up quick when offered on 'For Sale' ), I do hope I don't need 'belt and braces'. I'd certainly prefer to use the Bartels thingy with its continuous rope.
I could get me into some interesting trubl with that....

 

[dulls]

I have used a sock and found it to be fine. I presume the furler means you dont have to go up to the bow?

 

[zoidberg]

I have used a sock and found it to be fine. I presume the furler means you dont have to go up to the bow?

The idea is, I believe, that the sail remains furled when stowed below. When wanted, or ahead of time, it is taken up on deck in a bag or basket, and the tack-with-furler attached is clipped to the bowsprit ( probably retracted for convenience ). The sheets and the furling control line are checked/attached, as is the halyard. These lines are led aft as appropriate and convenient.

When it is wanted to use the sail, the bowsprit is extended ( another line - or manually ) and the sail is hoisted on its halyard, still furled. It's now ready to go.

On a suitable point of sail, the furling line is checked clear, and the sail hauled out and filled by means of the appropriate sheet...... then sheeted in/out as needed.

Recovering the sail requires the furling line to be pulled in, which rotates the sail's luff - or a similar arrangement - which rolls the sail up progressively. It may then be dropped onto the deck and stuffed back into a bag/basket until wanted again..... or unclipped from the retracted bowsprit, and taken below.

That's the theory, and there are variants, of course - and plenty of 'gotchas', too. But not as many as when using a spinnaker pole.....

 

[michael_w]

My masthead rigged 37' medium displacement cruising boat didn't come with any kite gear at all. I only sail with SWMBO.

Decided to try and save a bit of cash so fitted the boat with a Selden bowsprit and an asymmetric in a snuffer. To be quite honest the snuffer is sometimes more trouble than its worth, though it does help to lead the downhaul via a snatch block on the bowsprit so the snuffer runs down the luff.

That said, I have found the asymmetric pretty limited when compared to a conventional kite. It is very difficult to keep the thing pulling well when there's any slop and the wind's lightish. My boat is never going to pick up and plane (can I have a Dehler 30 od please!) so it makes sense to run deep, which is the one thing the assy isn't very good at. Letting the tack line off helps a bit.

Seriously considering buying a conventional kite and all the gear. She needs twin poles too as there's a permanent babystay in the way.

 

[flaming]

Seriously considering buying a conventional kite and all the gear. She needs twin poles too as there's a permanent babystay in the way.

Not necessarily...

For cruising use you can get round that by having an end for end pole. Very easy if your pole up would be below the babystay, but still possible if not, you just need to pass the pole in front of the babystay when gybing - which method would be dictated by exactly how far forward and how far up the mast your babystay goes. At 37 feet you'd definitely need a carbon pole to end for end, but you may find that 1 carbon pole is cheaper and easier to use than a pair of aluminium poles together with 2 pole ups and 2 pole downs.

 

[dulls]

The idea is, I believe, that the sail remains furled when stowed below. When wanted, or ahead of time, it is taken up on deck in a bag or basket, and the tack-with-furler attached is clipped to the bowsprit ( probably retracted for convenience ). The sheets and the furling control line are checked/attached, as is the halyard. These lines are led aft as appropriate and convenient.

When it is wanted to use the sail, the bowsprit is extended ( another line - or manually ) and the sail is hoisted on its halyard, still furled. It's now ready to go.

On a suitable point of sail, the furling line is checked clear, and the sail hauled out and filled by means of the appropriate sheet...... then sheeted in/out as needed.

Recovering the sail requires the furling line to be pulled in, which rotates the sail's luff - or a similar arrangement - which rolls the sail up progressively. It may then be dropped onto the deck and stuffed back into a bag/basket until wanted again..... or unclipped from the retracted bowsprit, and taken below.

That's the theory, and there are variants, of course - and plenty of 'gotchas', too. But not as many as when using a spinnaker pole.....

So which would you say is the best relating to the original post?

 

[michael_w]

The kite would be a bit big to end-for-end in any breeze, especially with the pilot steering. Oh, for a 7/8 fractional rig

 

[dunedin]

So which would you say is the best relating to the original post?

Definitely furler in my view

 

[dulls]

Definitely furler in my view

Thanks. I have used one but not the other.

 

[[178529]]

Having sailed over my spinnaker and asymmetric when racing on more than one occasion I would say don't go near them singlehanded. When it goes wrong with a big sail it can go very erong. With more than one, just launching from the hatch is as easy as anything else.

 

[Cariadco]

I've a huge Drifter with bottom-up furler. I love the system and have every intention of having an A3 with a top-down furler, in the future.
I've removed the Drifter from the racing inventory as it's a Genoa dimensions, so unlike a Code 0, I get hammered on the handicap.
I've a Pair of Asymmetricals I use, one is 110 sq m and is on a shute. It's ok, sort of. You've got to ensure the Loop, goes over the Forestay when gybing, but apart from that, it's fairly easy to use, once you've set everything up, on the deck. Oh, the other Assymetrical? that one is......160 sq m......and is used out it's bag, and ONLY in winds below 5 knots.....It's a scary thing, but we pass everyone and everything in light winds. We've never managed to drop it, yet, without some parts of it going in the water!!! It's just sooooo bloody big!!
Attached photo of us out playing with it, last month, and a photo of the Furling Drifter.
Anyways, back to the OP's Question.....Furler.

 

[r_h]

The kite would be a bit big to end-for-end in any breeze, especially with the pilot steering. Oh, for a 7/8 fractional rig

Not if you're using separate sheets and guys. Regularly gybe singlehanded with a 95m2 kite and an aluminium pole - the pole lift takes the weight so a carbon pole isn't necessary.

Edit: We don't use a snuffer either -- we tow the halyard in the water behind the boat instead, which controls the drop and ensure there are no snags.

 

[michael_w]

Yes, towing the halyard is an excellent technique. On my old Ballad we had to tie a tea towel to the halyard to provide a bit of drag.

 

[Cariadco]

And the Salt in the Halyard after?

 

[flaming]

And the Salt in the Halyard after?

Not an issue. By the very nature of the part of the halyard that you throw in the water it's not the part that's under load when the kite is up.

 

[flaming]

I've a huge Drifter with bottom-up furler. I love the system and have every intention of having an A3 with a top-down furler, in the future.
I've removed the Drifter from the racing inventory as it's a Genoa dimensions, so unlike a Code 0, I get hammered on the handicap.
I've a Pair of Asymmetricals I use, one is 110 sq m and is on a shute. It's ok, sort of. You've got to ensure the Loop, goes over the Forestay when gybing, but apart from that, it's fairly easy to use, once you've set everything up, on the deck. Oh, the other Assymetrical? that one is......160 sq m......and is used out it's bag, and ONLY in winds below 5 knots.....It's a scary thing, but we pass everyone and everything in light winds. We've never managed to drop it, yet, without some parts of it going in the water!!! It's just sooooo bloody big!!
Attached photo of us out playing with it, last month, and a photo of the Furling Drifter.
Anyways, back to the OP's Question.....Furler.

Get a retrieval line put on the drifter. Makes a massive difference to how fast you can get the thing down the forehatch.

 

[Cariadco]

Not an issue. By the very nature of the part of the halyard that you throw in the water it's not the part that's under load when the kite is up.

Fair point, but I was thinking about the Halyard becoming stiff and crinkly, with the salt, and having to clean it all the time.