Repairing a Harken Electric Winch

[lpdsn]

I've a Harken two-speed electric winch that stopped working last year. There was nothing obvious upon inspection at the time. I've now got around to preparing to tackle it.

Anyway, if anyone else has done similar it would be handy to compare notes. I've fitted wiring to both the faulty winch and a good one to compare voltages. Surprisingly, both +ve terminals on the motor are powered up regardless of which button is pressed, bith on working and faulty winches. The voltages across the motor for the working one are down about 0.75V, which is as I'd expect if it's drawing large currents, but otherwise is no different. So I still don't know what determines which way the motor spins, although that's probably just a side issue.

The electrical connections are as per those shown in the manual at the link below.

http://www.harken.com/uploadedfiles/Product_Support/PDF/46.2STE_HY-08.pdf

There's no current flowing through the motor of the faulty one. Obvious suspicion is that the wiring is burnt out, but curiously there was no smell of burning when it stopped working.

So, anyone got similar experiences of an electric winch failing?

 

[pvb]

I've fitted wiring to both the faulty winch and a good one to compare voltages. Surprisingly, both +ve terminals on the motor are powered up regardless of which button is pressed, bith on working and faulty winches. The voltages across the motor for the working one are down about 0.75V, which is as I'd expect if it's drawing large currents, but otherwise is no different. So I still don't know what determines which way the motor spins, although that's probably just a side issue.

The motor has a single negative terminal, and 2 positive terminals. If you apply 12v to one positive terminal, the motor will run one way; if you apply 12v to the other positive terminal it runs in reverse. If you have 12v on both terminals, there's probably something wrong with your solenoid box.

 

[lpdsn]

The motor has a single negative terminal, and 2 positive terminals. If you apply 12v to one positive terminal, the motor will run one way; if you apply 12v to the other positive terminal it runs in reverse. If you have 12v on both terminals, there's probably something wrong with your solenoid box.

That's what I assumed at first, so I wired up voltmeters to the working winch too. I got the same results. It's somewhat constrained in that I have to stick a wired in voltmeter out of a hatch so I can see it when pressing the buttons to operate the winch, but the results are very repeatable, even if unexpected.

Oh, and I also temporarily disconnected one +ve terminal on the faulty winch and that made no difference.

 

[DickieT]

I assume the winch does not run in either direction, if so it's a fault common to both the clockwise/anti-clockwise motor windings.
1) check the solenoid can be heard clicking in both directions, the in line fuse (or holder/wiring) shown feeding the solenoid coil is a possible canditate here.
2) check with your meter there is virtually zero volts between the negative terminal on the motor and battery negative once you hit either push button. Bad negative return possibility.
3) to prove the motor, disconnect the wires from the terminals on the motor and temporarily jump the motor directly from the battery.
I think having a voltage on both the positive terminals is a bit of a red herring, probably a back reading through a common internal connection in the motor.
Good luck,
Richard

 

[PaulRainbow]

The diagram shows two switches, presumably slow and fast ? What other controls are there ? What do you need to do to engage reverse ?

 

[lpdsn]

The diagram shows two switches, presumably slow and fast ? What other controls are there ? What do you need to do to engage reverse ?

Just like a manual winch, slow is reverse.

 

[lpdsn]

I assume the winch does not run in either direction, if so it's a fault common to both the clockwise/anti-clockwise motor windings.
1) check the solenoid can be heard clicking in both directions, the in line fuse (or holder/wiring) shown feeding the solenoid coil is a possible canditate here.
2) check with your meter there is virtually zero volts between the negative terminal on the motor and battery negative once you hit either push button. Bad negative return possibility.
3) to prove the motor, disconnect the wires from the terminals on the motor and temporarily jump the motor directly from the battery.
I think having a voltage on both the positive terminals is a bit of a red herring, probably a back reading through a common internal connection in the motor.
Good luck,
Richard

Yes, is a problem in both directions. Assuming separate windings then it is either both or a common fault - maybe electric connection of -ve port. But I'm just assuming it is separate windings.

Solenoids click correctly. The LED voltmeter I've plugged in lights up at the same time and displays the voltage. There is only about 0.75A less than the full battery voltage across the working winch motor when operating (at light load) so wiring is good there. There is full battery voltage across the motor of the non-working winch, so nothing definitive, but probably not bad wiring up to that point.

It's about 6-7 feet direct from the battery and I've not got the spare wiring for a 200A direct circuit, nor would I want to bypass the fuse.

You may be right about the red herring, but it is an important clue I think until satisfactorily explained away. One of the reasons I started the thread so I could compare notes with others who had these winches. As I replied to pvb, my initial assumptions were the same as his, so the voltage readings I'm getting don't make sense. Particularly in that I'm getting pretty much the same on the fully working winch.

Has anyone out there had a winch motor burn out? How strong or subtle was the smell? Even a windlass burning out would probably smell the same, but to date I've avoided that, so I don't know whether or not the fact I didn't smell burning was significant.

 

[PaulRainbow]

Just like a manual winch, slow is reverse.

OK.

No experience of these winches, but as it has a "fixed" -ve the two +ve connections must surely be separate windings. The other way of achieving reverse with, say, a windlass is to reverse polarity, that isn't happening here. Does seem unlikely both windings would simultaneously expire. Richards suggestion above makes sense to me :

"3) to prove the motor, disconnect the wires from the terminals on the motor and temporarily jump the motor directly from the battery."

 

[DickieT]

If you are getting the full battery voltage DIRECTLY across the motor terminals I would agree the wiring is ok and not falling under load. At this stage I would disconnect the wires off the motor and simply do a resistance check from the negative motor terminal to each of the +ve ones in turn. Both should show a simular low reading of a (say) a couple of ohms. If the motor has burnt out the reading will be high or open circuit. As a final check jumping the motor across the battery will prove the motor one way or the other. It will draw nothing like 200A off load. Not the case if it has gone short but then that seems unlikely if you are getting full battery voltage across it at the moment ! There is also a chance the motor has an internal non resettable thermal fuse, that may have gone if the winch was overloaded, but think this an outside possibility. Again the resistance check would show this.
It is a simple enough system, same principle of operation used in winches and all sorts of reversing DC motors, certainly not unique to Harken, so should be all sorts of help available. You have the big advantage of having an identical working system to do comparative checks with.
A check on the winding resistance could be your best bet.
Richard
Richard

 

[lpdsn]

If you are getting the full battery voltage DIRECTLY across the motor terminals I would agree the wiring is ok and not falling under load. At this stage I would disconnect the wires off the motor and simply do a resistance check from the negative motor terminal to each of the +ve ones in turn. Both should show a simular low reading of a (say) a couple of ohms. If the motor has burnt out the reading will be high or open circuit. As a final check jumping the motor across the battery will prove the motor one way or the other. It will draw nothing like 200A off load. Not the case if it has gone short but then that seems unlikely if you are getting full battery voltage across it at the moment ! There is also a chance the motor has an internal non resettable thermal fuse, that may have gone if the winch was overloaded, but think this an outside possibility. Again the resistance check would show this.
It is a simple enough system, same principle of operation used in winches and all sorts of reversing DC motors, certainly not unique to Harken, so should be all sorts of help available. You have the big advantage of having an identical working system to do comparative checks with.
A check on the winding resistance could be your best bet.
Richard
Richard

Thanks for your help Richard and everyone. I was beginning to think that there was some complex arrangement inside the motor before I started the thread, but I think you're right. Harken aren't going to re-invent the electric motor. They're winch manufacturers who presumably get their motors from someone else.

The point about there probably being separate windings was useful. I was thinking I'd have to get the motor rewound, but that is sounding a lot less likely. Someone in the crew burning out the high speed windings when I wasn't looking is plausible, but the low speed would have damaged something on the boat first. And there was no smoke or burning smell.

It's very difficult to work on the motor in situ, so looks like I'll have to take it off on my next trip to the boat before experimenting further and taking it apart. I suspect it may turn out to be the negative post or the internal wiring to it, but I hadn't though of the thermal fuse.

 

[lpdsn]

Incidentally, just tried a multi-meter across the terminals. Negative open circuit with both positives. 0.6 Ohms between the two positives, which possibly is the two windings in series. Explains the voltage being the same on both positives.

And backs up my theory that it has something to do with the -ve terminal post.

 

[DickieT]

It might simply be a dodgy brush or brush holder.
Just to check, I take it the other, good, winch reads as expected, a low reading from the -ve terminal to the +ve terminals
Hope for the best!
Richard

 

[lpdsn]

It might simply be a dodgy brush or brush holder.
Just to check, I take it the other, good, winch reads as expected, a low reading from the -ve terminal to the +ve terminals
Hope for the best!
Richard

Thanks. I didn't check the other this morning as in a hurry to pack up. I'm back on the boat at the start of January. As it's so hard to work on the motor where it is I'm going to try to take the whole winch off.

 

[DickieT]

Incidentally, just tried a multi-meter across the terminals. Negative open circuit with both positives. 0.6 Ohms between the two positives, which possibly is the two windings in series. Explains the voltage being the same on both positives.

And backs up my theory that it has something to do with the -ve terminal post.

Yes, fairly sure the motor has series field coils - like most high torque DC motors. Two field coils, wound in opposite directions, one end of each comes to the +ve terminals, they are then joined at their other ends and are connected to one side of the armature via a brush. Then through the windings of the armature and then connected to the -ve terminal via the other brush. This explains how you get a positive reading on both the + ve terminals irrespective of which terminal is powered from the solenoid. Lack of continuity from the -ve terminal due to lost connection via armature. As I say hopefully brush/dirty commutator problem, possibility section of armature winding open circuit and motor stopped on that section of commutator, but let's stick with the cheap easy things!
Hope you get to the bottom of it come January.
Richard

 

[rudolph_hart]

Thanks for your help Richard and everyone. I was beginning to think that there was some complex arrangement inside the motor before I started the thread, but I think you're right. Harken aren't going to re-invent the electric motor. They're winch manufacturers who presumably get their motors from someone else.

The point about there probably being separate windings was useful. I was thinking I'd have to get the motor rewound, but that is sounding a lot less likely. Someone in the crew burning out the high speed windings when I wasn't looking is plausible, but the low speed would have damaged something on the boat first. And there was no smoke or burning smell.

It's very difficult to work on the motor in situ, so looks like I'll have to take it off on my next trip to the boat before experimenting further and taking it apart. I suspect it may turn out to be the negative post or the internal wiring to it, but I hadn't though of the thermal fuse.

The fact that you have thermal fuses indicates that you have a Dehler, who fitted them instead of 'trip switches' contrary to Harken's recommendation.

Harken bought out the Italian winch manufacturer Barbarossa & renamed the company Harken Italy. Both the the electric motor and the reduction gearboxes are manufactured by Bonfiglioli (again Italian). As others have said, the motors have a common negative & the other two are for fast & slow (i.e Reverse on the motor). Don't split the motor from the gearbox - remove them as one - they are VERY heavy. Also try not to hold or bench mount the motor differently from its orientation on the boat. The gearboxes have a special industrial synthetic oil which is about £1M an pint (approx :disgust:, ) which may leak if not oriented correctly (in my case horizontally).

Apart from servicing the winches, I have replaced all the gearbox bearings, lube & seals, as well as the winch components, so I have a ton of research docs on the 44.2, so if you would like some, please PM me your email address & I'll send it to you.

Hope this helps.

 

[lpdsn]

The fact that you have thermal fuses indicates that you have a Dehler, who fitted them instead of 'trip switches' contrary to Harken's recommendation.

Harken bought out the Italian winch manufacturer Barbarossa & renamed the company Harken Italy. Both the the electric motor and the reduction gearboxes are manufactured by Bonfiglioli (again Italian). As others have said, the motors have a common negative & the other two are for fast & slow (i.e Reverse on the motor). Don't split the motor from the gearbox - remove them as one - they are VERY heavy. Also try not to hold or bench mount the motor differently from its orientation on the boat. The gearboxes have a special industrial synthetic oil which is about £1M an pint (approx :disgust:, ) which may leak if not oriented correctly (in my case horizontally).

Apart from servicing the winches, I have replaced all the gearbox bearings, lube & seals, as well as the winch components, so I have a ton of research docs on the 44.2, so if you would like some, please PM me your email address & I'll send it to you.

Hope this helps.

Hi Rudolph, it is indeed a Dehler. Thanks for your offer, I'll send a PM shortly.

 

[dgadee]

Just researching my own problem on this Harken 44 two speed winch on a Dehler. Slow has stopped working. The solenoid clicks but no action from winch. Fast is fine. Fuse ok, too. Does this suggest a rewind of motor required? Or something less extreme?

 

[lpdsn]

Just researching my own problem on this Harken 44 two speed winch on a Dehler. Slow has stopped working. The solenoid clicks but no action from winch. Fast is fine. Fuse ok, too. Does this suggest a rewind of motor required? Or something less extreme?

What I did was fit a small voltmeter across the terminals of the motor. One of these: https://www.amazon.co.uk/TOOGOO-vol...TF8&qid=1500038571&sr=8-13&keywords=voltmeter

I actually fitted a connector so I could move the voltmeter around various take off points.

You can them determine if sufficient voltage is getting to the terminals. If it is, then it could be the winding or the 'slow' +ve terminal of the motor. If not, you need to look at the control box or the wiring to the motor. High currents are involved so a poor connection somewhere is likely to lead to a significant voltage drop.

If fast is fine the -ve terminal has to be fine too.

Getting the motor off is another battle. I think (on my boat anyway) the only way is to take off the entire winch. I tried and failed in January and decided to wait for warmer weather. Guess that'll have to be the next few weeks.

PS the windings are only likely to have burnt out if you'd overloaded the winch, which is some force on the 'slow' setting.

 

[dgadee]

You can them determine if sufficient voltage is getting to the terminals. If it is, then it could be the winding or the 'slow' +ve terminal of the motor. If not, you need to look at the control box or the wiring to the motor. High currents are involved so a poor connection somewhere is likely to lead to a significant voltage drop.

If fast is fine the -ve terminal has to be fine too.

Getting the motor off is another battle. I think (on my boat anyway) the only way is to take off the entire winch.

Thanks. Luckily the starter cables I carry went from the battery to the winch. Direct linking worked in both directions. I suppose I just need to clean all the connections as a next step and see if that makes a difference.

There are two solenoids. Both click. Does that mean my problem is between the solenoids and the motor, or could one be faulty and still click?

 

[dgadee]

My motor operates correctly, and when I short out the slow speed contactor the winch turns indicating the problem is with the contactor/solenoid. This is a Mac 15 made in Italy. It appears only the Mac 10 is currently available but since these were meant to be repairable I am thinking of taking it apart and cleaning the contacts. Is this simple?

Also, I see on a 10 year old post on the Dehler forum that a gearbox seal has to be regularly replaced. Anyone know about this?