Disposing of old pink anti-freeze

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FairweatherDave

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Disposing of old pink anti-freeze Beta 25hp

Winterizing my engine afloat and decided to run antifreeze into the sea water side as recommended by Beta. Caught the pink stuff exiting the exhaust in a bucket, and obviously more will follow when we come to bring the engine back into commision. So what should I do with the used pink stuff, and what should I do with the stuff when I change it in the fresh water side of the engine (something I should do every five years). Obviously it contains ethylene glycol. I've done a little search here and on google but nothing instantly sprang to mind. I have not investigated our local tip yet, but my club only offers old oil collection. What do people do? Curious!
 
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Well, a little more googling Halfords products was unproductive. When I did a search of propylene glycol no Halfords product came up and the Comma data sheets don't specify either. I suspect the pink stuff over here is ethylene glycol (I left my container on the boat unhelpfully) but I do know it was pre-mixed 50:50 with OAT whatever that is..... it was recommended for the engine.) All I can do is quote an esteemed forumite...........(from a 2011 post).....This is why I posted my original question ........

"Be aware that there are two basic types of ethylene glycol based antifreeze.
The traditional type with a low silicate corrosion inhibitor system. Generally sold for vehicles pre 1996.
An Advanced or Long-life type with "organic acid technology" ( OAT ) Suitable for newer vehicles.
The two types should not be mixed although there is a universal top-up mixture than can be used with either.
There is also a hybrid ... for some specific vehicles I think
I have no idea what inhibitors are used in propylene glycol based antifreeze!
Ethylene glycol is toxic and hazardous to the marine environment. It should always be disposed of safely ashore.
Propylene glycol is not classed as toxic. It is therefore a better choice if there is a risk that the antifreeze will be released into the environment.
There is no reason that I am aware of why an automotive antifreeze should not be used apart from the fact that it will almost ceratinly , in the UK, be ethylene glycol based."
 
FairweatherDave said:
Well, a little more googling Halfords products was unproductive. When I did a search of propylene glycol no Halfords product came up and the Comma data sheets don't specify either. I suspect the pink stuff over here is ethylene glycol (I left my container on the boat unhelpfully) but I do know it was pre-mixed 50:50 with OAT whatever that is..... it was recommended for the engine.)
Click to expand...

Traditional ethylene glycol antifreeze is normally blue. The posh modern stuff with OAT corrosion inhibitors is normally pink, or orange. You can't use the modern stuff in old engines because the corrosion inhibitors corrode them.

"Ethylene glycol is toxic and hazardous to the marine environment. It should always be disposed of safely ashore."
Click to expand...

There's a lot of borderline hysteria about ethylene glycol. Yes, it's toxic, but only at high concentrations. Dump the entire cooling system of your boat into the sea and it's diluted below harmful levels by the time the clouds has spread out by a meter. It then biodegrades nicely. A lot worse things go into the sea, but if you're worried just dilute it a lot before dumping it in.
 
Ukeluthier said:
I don't know about your side of the pond, but over here in the US the pink stuff is propylene glycol -- not ethylene glycol -- and it is nontoxic and biodegradable.
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It is not easy to find propylene glycol antifreeze in the UK
There is something called "Freeze Ban" for RV and caravan etc domestic water Systems, I am pretty sure not inhibited to use as an engine coolant
Some products for use as heat transfer media in food processing etc
Starbrite Non toxic Pink antifreeze for water systems and engine storage and Starbrite Sea Safe, also for winter storage

Are all I can find. Nothing AFAICS suitable as an engine coolant


FairweatherDave said:
Well, a little more googling Halfords products was unproductive. When I did a search of propylene glycol no Halfords product came up and the Comma data sheets don't specify either. I suspect the pink stuff over here is ethylene glycol (I left my container on the boat unhelpfully) but I do know it was pre-mixed 50:50 with OAT whatever that is..... it was recommended for the engine.) All I can do is quote an esteemed forumite...........(from a 2011 post).....This is why I posted my original question ........

"Be aware that there are two basic types of ethylene glycol based antifreeze.
The traditional type with a low silicate corrosion inhibitor system. Generally sold for vehicles pre 1996.
An Advanced or Long-life type with "organic acid technology" ( OAT ) Suitable for newer vehicles.
The two types should not be mixed although there is a universal top-up mixture than can be used with either.
There is also a hybrid ... for some specific vehicles I think
I have no idea what inhibitors are used in propylene glycol based antifreeze!
Ethylene glycol is toxic and hazardous to the marine environment. It should always be disposed of safely ashore.
Propylene glycol is not classed as toxic. It is therefore a better choice if there is a risk that the antifreeze will be released into the environment.
There is no reason that I am aware of why an automotive antifreeze should not be used apart from the fact that it will almost ceratinly , in the UK, be ethylene glycol based."
Click to expand...

That paragraph looks familiar!

As in reply to Ukeluthier I am not aware of any propylene glycol antifreeze available in the Uk for use as a engine coolant........... If there is I will be told within seconds of this going live you may sure!

There is unfortunately no standardisation for colours but generally the conventional antifreezes are blue or green while the long life OAT type are red or yellow. Halfords own brands are blue and red respectively. Volvo's are green and yellow .
 
Many thanks JD! Much of the googling lead to old material hinting that the subject had died a death. RichardS isn't such a bad fellow :)
Obviously I am still going to try and avoid sticking it in the sea as it seems wrong. My own instinct is to stick it in the old oil collection point, (particularly if it had been drained from the closed side of the cooling system.

Cheers Vic. Did not know if you wanted drawing into the issue!
 
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Over here we put ONLY ethylene glycol with or without OATS (as designated by engine mfgr ) into the fresh water closed cooling system of all vehicles & boats. EG is good for many years & is commonly called "permanent antifreeze".

Propylene glycol, commonly called called non-toxic or Rec. Vehicle (Caravan) antifreeze is only used in the raw sea water portion of a boat engine. It simply displaces the raw water & lays in the raw water system until the next time you use the boat.
We also drain the domestic water system ,add a couple of ltrs of PG to the water tank & pump it thru the taps etc to displace any water. Same for the head & any other systems that contain only water.

PG is not suitable for the closed cooling system of engines.
It is safe to put in potable water systems as long as you flush it out in spring by pumping tank dry via taps & filling tank with fresh potable water. Just don't drink the first couple of glasses from the taps.:)

I am sure engines over there use only ethylene glycol "permanent antifreeze" in their closed cooling systems also.

If you can't find PG, Vodka will work.:rolleyes:

Hope this helps.
Cheers/ Len
 
Here is a UK source of Propylene Glycol A-freeze for potable water systems.
This is rated -100 deg which is over kill. Mix it 50/50 with water & you will be safe in UK.
4 ltrs should do most single engine boats. At this strength,you could catch it & re-use it next yr as long as you get it out of system before adding water. The strongest I've seen it in eastern Canada & US is -40 & that is colder than I ever hope to see.

Cheers/ Len

http://www.laleisure.co.uk/camco-winterban-100-antifreeze
 
Propylene Glycol A-freeze for potable water can also be used to fill your watermaker's membrane when laying up in cold climates. Just suck it in through the flush inlet and leave it. We have used it for three winters with down to -40 in one case. Left same mixture in for two years in Canada with no damage to membrane. Normal pickling would of course freeze and damage membrane.
 
thinwater said:
Actually, EG and PG are identical in bidegradability AND marine toxicity. Read the MSDSs and EPA research on runway deicer.
Click to expand...

From the MSDS you linked to, ethylene glycol

Ecotoxicity:
Ecotoxicity in water (LC50): 41000 mg/l 96 hours [Fish (Trout)]. 46300 mg/l 48 hours [water flea]. 34250 mg/l 96 hours [Fish
(bluegill fish)]. 34250 mg/l 72 hours [Fish (Goldfish)].​

and propylene glycol


Ecotoxicity:
Ecotoxicity in water (LC50): >5000 mg/l 24 hours [Goldfish]. >10000 mg/l 48 hours [guppy]. >10000 mg/l 48 hours [water flea].​
 
JumbleDuck said:
From the MSDS you linked to, ethylene glycol

Ecotoxicity:
Ecotoxicity in water (LC50): 41000 mg/l 96 hours [Fish (Trout)]. 46300 mg/l 48 hours [water flea]. 34250 mg/l 96 hours [Fish
(bluegill fish)]. 34250 mg/l 72 hours [Fish (Goldfish)].​

and propylene glycol


Ecotoxicity:
Ecotoxicity in water (LC50): >5000 mg/l 24 hours [Goldfish]. >10000 mg/l 48 hours [guppy]. >10000 mg/l 48 hours [water flea].​
Click to expand...

We are exposed to PG on a regular basis. Most chemicals affect living organisms if taken in high enough concentrations.
PG is rated GRA for food,drug & other products that humans consume or come in contact with.
After reading the att'd link,I will not drink is straight,but I won't worry about using it to protect my potable water system either.
I won't say you should just pump it overboard,but it seems reasonably safe to do so.
Suggest you collect most of it out of your boat's systems-before adding new water- & re-use it next year.

http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/csem/csem.asp?csem=12&po=14

Cheers/ Len:)
 
Popped down to my local household recycling centre in Hove. I asked what do you do with old antifreeze. They take it away and deal with it. Simple. There is a table where you can place all sorts of chemicals. I know the cynics will say they just bung it in general waste when your back is turned but hopefully not. I like to think the council take their duty pretty seriously and I am sure they would rather you gave it to them...... I would happily turn up there with my old tins of paint collection too now rather than disguising it in general waste where I expect it would go to landfill. I felt encouraged!
 
Len Ingalls said:
I won't say you should just pump it overboard,but it seems reasonably safe to do so.
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Typical LC50 for ethylene glycol seems to be about 35 g/l, so the 2kg of it currently in my engine will be at that level when it has been diluted in 60 litres of water, which is a sphere about two feet in diameter. Oh yes, and the fish has to stay in that sphere for two days to have a 50-50 chance of snuffing it.

It's a bit worse for propylene glycol, but not much: diluting 2kg to 5 g/l takes a sphere of seawater 4' in diameter, so basically by the time it has reached the other side of your transom it's harmless.
 
Isn't antifreeze often implicated in poisoning of cats and dogs (and sometimes children, when it has been stored in the wrong bottle within reach of toddlers)? Of course, they have vastly different physiologies to fish, but antifreeze certainly is harmful at pretty low doses for some organisms.
 
AntarcticPilot said:
Isn't antifreeze often implicated in poisoning of cats and dogs (and sometimes children, when it has been stored in the wrong bottle within reach of toddlers)? Of course, they have vastly different physiologies to fish, but antifreeze certainly is harmful at pretty low doses for some organisms.
Click to expand...

It's sweet and pleasant to drink............... Known to have been used for sweetening wine. 1985_diethylene_glycol_wine_scandal
 
AntarcticPilot said:
Isn't antifreeze often implicated in poisoning of cats and dogs (and sometimes children, when it has been stored in the wrong bottle within reach of toddlers)? Of course, they have vastly different physiologies to fish, but antifreeze certainly is harmful at pretty low doses for some organisms.
Click to expand...

Yes, it's not terribly nice for us. According to Wikipedia, the toxic dose for humans (requiring medical intervention) is about 0.1 ml/kg and the lethal dose is believed to be about 1.4 ml/kg. Ethylene glycol apparently has a pleasantly sweet taste, so I think they now include bitrex in at least some antifreezes.

To add to the problem, there used to be ethylene glycol - methanol blended antifreezes around, which really were not a good idea to drink.

Overall it seems a lot safer to tip the stuff in the sea than to leave it around where a human might get hold of it ...
 
The point, people, is that marine toxicity is TOTALLY different from human toxicity. They sell zinc pills at the drugs store--you need it--but we know it is lethal to marine life.

That said, EG is ONLY for blackwater and engine systems.

----

From the US EPA report on glycol deicers, perhaps the most definitive in the world:
http://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2015-06/documents/airport-deicing-pds-2000.pdf

Table 9-1 summarizes aquatic toxicity data from studies that directly compare
ethylene glycol and propylene glycol under the same or similar experimental conditions. In
general, the data show that ethylene glycol and propylene glycol exhibit aquatic toxicological
effects at concentrations within the same order of magnitude. Although EPA does not use such a
system, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service Classification System for Acute Exposures defines
“relatively harmless” as any chemical with an LC
above 1,000 mg/L (3). The test results shown
50
in Table 9-1 indicate that ethylene glycol and propylene glycol may be classified as “relatively
harmless,” as defined by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service.
 
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