Any experience of the FPT 4 Cylinder engines?

[Sandy Bottom]

Hi,

Just wondering if anybody has any actual experience of the FPT (Iveco) four cylinder series (FPT N45 100 etc).

I'm looking at the N45 at 'D' rating i.e 85hp continuous unlimited for a re-engine (twin set-up) for a long distance cruiser. Reliability and simplicity are the prime requirements.

Details; here

 

[tinkicker0]

That's a badge engineered cummins 4BT with what looks like rear timing.

 

[Sandy Bottom]

That's a badge engineered cummins 4BT with what looks like rear timing.

So presumably the FPT 150 is a badged 6BT? Thank you Tk.

 

[Latestarter1]

So presumably the FPT 150 is a badged 6BT? Thank you Tk.

No not quite.....These are products of European Engine Alliance.

FPT 45 is a bit of a hybrid. Block is pretty much rear gear drive Cummins ISBe with Cummins 4B two valve cylinder head, however crank and bore different. Fuel system is Bosch VE derived, not used by Cummins.

I have used both 4.5 and 6.7 FPT engines, however not the natural two valve you are considering. The four pot turbo I used was a rough tough little diamond as it has no Lanchester shaft and no common rail fuel system. Used a pair of the 6.7 naturally aspirated big brothers in Detroit re-power and they worked extremely well.

Only have one reservation we had some grief with fuel pump on one engine, pump looks like a VE, however it is an Indian licence built clone without 100% Bosch compatibility. Ended up having to ship fuel pump back to UK to fix as French fuel pump shops were foxed.

Certainly inexpensive horsepower, how IVECO do it I have no clue.

Further to the above in the cold light of day, pulled out corres from a few years back, and note that there was at the a relatively small price delta 4 Vs 6 also some issues with cost and availability of 24 volt options. PM me with outline of your project and I will share experience with you. FPT dealers are with no offence intended 'flog em a box' people, technical assistance is not always brilliant.

PM me as to what you are attempting to do and I am happy to share my experience.

 

[Sandy Bottom]

Basically I'm trying to replace one of our currently fitted Perkins 4.236's - absolutely brilliant engine for our 'thumper' needs (long hours). I simply cannot find a decent spare 4.236 so now looking at a re-power with two basic thumpers for long hours, reliability, and simple maintenance. The FPT's seem (for a modern engine) to be pretty basic.

Any others?

 

[omega2]

http://www.mermaid-marine.co.uk/manufacturers/2-fiat-power-train/engines/7-n45-100

 

[Latestarter1]

Now I know where you are coming from excellent choice to replace replace Perkins 4.236, very similar size envelope, pal of mine in Canada was replacing past their sell by date 4.236 and 6.354's with FPT 150's with good results.

FPT still market engines which meet IMO, RCD but not Tier II in certain territories which is a bonus. The FPT 45 will be slightly less tractor like than the Perkins and your existing adapter plates and transmissions will go straight on the back of the FPT's as they are both SAE 3 saving you a bundle of money.

Inexpensive filters, and whilst I would never use full scope of it FPT45 has a 600 hr lube oil drain interval using same 15W40 lube as your Perkins.

 

[tinkicker0]

No not quite.....These are products of European Engine Alliance.

FPT 45 is a bit of a hybrid. Block is pretty much rear gear drive Cummins ISBe with Cummins 4B two valve cylinder head, however crank and bore different. Fuel system is Bosch VE derived, not used by Cummins.

I have used both 4.5 and 6.7 FPT engines, however not the natural two valve you are considering. The four pot turbo I used was a rough tough little diamond as it has no Lanchester shaft and no common rail fuel system. Used a pair of the 6.7 naturally aspirated big brothers in Detroit re-power and they worked extremely well.

Only have one reservation we had some grief with fuel pump on one engine, pump looks like a VE, however it is an Indian licence built clone without 100% Bosch compatibility. Ended up having to ship fuel pump back to UK to fix as French fuel pump shops were foxed.

Certainly inexpensive horsepower, how IVECO do it I have no clue.

Further to the above in the cold light of day, pulled out corres from a few years back, and note that there was at the a relatively small price delta 4 Vs 6 also some issues with cost and availability of 24 volt options. PM me with outline of your project and I will share experience with you. FPT dealers are with no offence intended 'flog em a box' people, technical assistance is not always brilliant.

PM me as to what you are attempting to do and I am happy to share my experience.

Interesting, so the bore is not the same as the Tector? I will need to keep a sharp eye out for these blocks as sometimes the management buy in secondhand blocks when the original saddles* have fretted too badly to line bore and preserve gear train integrity and I have been caught out in the past by ISC 2 valve blocks.

*Number 4 saddle and cap of course on the ISB usually and probably 3 and 5 on ISC.

 

[Latestarter1]

Interesting, so the bore is not the same as the Tector? I will need to keep a sharp eye out for these blocks as sometimes the management buy in secondhand blocks when the original saddles* have fretted too badly to line bore and preserve gear train integrity and I have been caught out in the past by ISC 2 valve blocks.

*Number 4 saddle and cap of course on the ISB usually and probably 3 and 5 on ISC.

Cummins ISBe 3.9 Tector 3.9 both have common 102mm bore. Cummins 4.5 and IVECO 4.5 have structurally different blocks, Cummins have 107mm bore with crank giving 124 mm stroke. Iveco 4.5 block has 104mm bore with offset ground crank giving 132mm stroke. You CANNOT pick and mix these blocks, and as you have already spotted Cummins reversed conn rods in order to maintain rod clearance with cam.

Both these engines have 'best in class' crankshaft bearing areas, almost 30% greater than say equivalent MAN 4.5, however running bus engines on sexy synthetic oils with two year drain intervals and expect ANY engine to live long and happy life. I would suggest that bus companies learn vehicle maintenance from watching banger racing.

 

[Sandy Bottom]

Thank you.

Db.

 

[Mermaid-Jon]

If you're looking for a reliable and cheap to maintain package have you considered the Mermaid J-444 NA based on the rock solid JCB Dieselmax engine. 85HP on a Heavy duty rating, hard wearing and spares available for 90+% of the engine from any JCB dealer anywhere in the world. Obviously marinisation components are mermaid only, but Jabsco sea water pump so impellers easily available.
It's all BRITISH made too - base engine and marinisation components.
If interested, contact Julian down at the Mermaid office in Poole.
All the best
Jon

 

[Sandy Bottom]

If you're looking for a reliable and cheap to maintain package have you considered the Mermaid J-444 NA based on the rock solid JCB Dieselmax engine. 85HP on a Heavy duty rating, hard wearing and spares available for 90+% of the engine from any JCB dealer anywhere in the world. Obviously marinisation components are mermaid only, but Jabsco sea water pump so impellers easily available.
It's all BRITISH made too - base engine and marinisation components.
If interested, contact Julian down at the Mermaid office in Poole.
All the best
Jon

Spoke to Julian this morning - Thank you!

 

[Latestarter1]

If you're looking for a reliable and cheap to maintain package have you considered the Mermaid J-444 NA based on the rock solid JCB Dieselmax engine. 85HP on a Heavy duty rating, hard wearing and spares available for 90+% of the engine from any JCB dealer anywhere in the world. Obviously marinisation components are mermaid only, but Jabsco sea water pump so impellers easily available.
It's all BRITISH made too - base engine and marinisation components.
If interested, contact Julian down at the Mermaid office in Poole.
All the best
Jon

Jon,

Sorry but one beef I have with New Mermaid is your incredibly poor data sheets which tell you absolutely zilch about the engine. One key fact required when doing re-powers is engine weight, unless you are not proud of it. Flywheel housing etc etc. Perkins 4.236 is 381kg and FPT is 450kg. Suggest you look at data sheets from Cat as a model rather that the pure fluff you are being given.

Very surprised you are pushing JCB ahead of FPT when you sell both engines in the power node, no lover of FPT marinisation but it is certainly far more competent than Cyril Snare's JCB home brewed marinisation and I told him so.

Looking at weight made me re-visit Perkins Sabre 92B 4.4 liter 85 hp, with bobtail weight of 398 kg, wonder why OP did not explore this option??

 

[Mermaid-Jon]

Latestarter,

Thanks for your reply. We are aware that our data sheets are not yet as we would like them to be, but we have putting resources into range development rather than new literature over recent times. We now have a range of engines that goes from 75hp to 160hp with the JCB and we are now playing 'catch up' with data sheets - they are coming, but bear with us. In the meantime, the data is there and we do supply it to anyone who requests it albeit not on a single data sheet. This will be remedied soon.

In this power sector our experience has been better with the JCB than with the FPT, so we will always recommend what we feel is the better option. Added to this the extended lead times to get any FPT engines that are not held in stock compared to JCB and most people opt for the product with no questions. The JCB works well and is solid and reliable and we get little or no comeback from them which has to count for something. Oh and of course the JCB is cheaper than the FPT by some margin.

Anyway, point taken on the data sheets - keep an eye on the web site in coming months and you'll see them loaded up.

All the best
Jon

 

[Latestarter1]

Latestarter,

Thanks for your reply. We are aware that our data sheets are not yet as we would like them to be, but we have putting resources into range development rather than new literature over recent times. We now have a range of engines that goes from 75hp to 160hp with the JCB and we are now playing 'catch up' with data sheets - they are coming, but bear with us. In the meantime, the data is there and we do supply it to anyone who requests it albeit not on a single data sheet. This will be remedied soon.

In this power sector our experience has been better with the JCB than with the FPT, so we will always recommend what we feel is the better option. Added to this the extended lead times to get any FPT engines that are not held in stock compared to JCB and most people opt for the product with no questions. The JCB works well and is solid and reliable and we get little or no comeback from them which has to count for something.

Anyway, point taken on the data sheets - keep an eye on the web site in coming months and you'll see them loaded up.

All the best
Jon

'In this power sector our experience has been better with the JCB than with the FPT' I am intrigued can you be more specific??

As to JCB I take it nobody has any clue of bobtail weight dry................

 

[Mermaid-Jon]

'In this power sector our experience has been better with the JCB than with the FPT' I am intrigued can you be more specific??

As to JCB I take it nobody has any clue of bobtail weight dry................

No, I can't offer specifics and it would be unprofessional of me to do so. That information is confidential between us, our customers and the franchisor.

In terms of the JCB, as I said we do have all information available. The dry weight of the Bobtailed J-444 naturally aspirated unit is 560kg which is approx. 100kg more than the FPT N45-100.

best regards
Jon

 

[Latestarter1]

No, I can't offer specifics and it would be unprofessional of me to do so. That information is confidential between us, our customers and the franchisor.

In terms of the JCB, as I said we do have all information available. The dry weight of the Bobtailed J-444 naturally aspirated unit is 560kg which is approx. 100kg more than the FPT N45-100.

best regards
Jon

I understand your reasons for confidentiality however somewhat concerning that you have technical issues with FPT N45-100.

Sadly as I suspected you are not proud of the weight of the JCB J-444, at 560kg it has a very limited market in leisure applications particularly OP's requirement for Perkins 4.236 replacement.

 

[Mermaid-Jon]

Sadly as I suspected you are not proud of the weight of the JCB J-444, at 560kg it has a very limited market in leisure applications particularly OP's requirement for Perkins 4.236 replacement.

Good Morning LS,
Thanks for your comment, but it's not a question of being proud or not proud - the weight is a fact and there's little anyone can do about that because the base engine is designed specifically for the construction market and as a result carries some additional weight. The JCB engine was not selected as a light weight leisure engine, it was selected as a rock solid base unit suitable for the commercial markets predominantly, but can be used in displacement vessels in the leisure market.
It comes down to customer choice at the end of the day and we provide potential customers with all of the technical data available to enable then to make their own decision on what is right for them.
Some we win and some we lose.
Best regards
Jon

 

[Latestarter1]

Latestarter,

Thanks for your reply. We are aware that our data sheets are not yet as we would like them to be, but we have putting resources into range development rather than new literature over recent times. We now have a range of engines that goes from 75hp to 160hp with the JCB and we are now playing 'catch up' with data sheets - they are coming, but bear with us. In the meantime, the data is there and we do supply it to anyone who requests it albeit not on a single data sheet. This will be remedied soon.

In this power sector our experience has been better with the JCB than with the FPT, so we will always recommend what we feel is the better option. Added to this the extended lead times to get any FPT engines that are not held in stock compared to JCB and most people opt for the product with no questions. The JCB works well and is solid and reliable and we get little or no comeback from them which has to count for something. Oh and of course the JCB is cheaper than the FPT by some margin.

Anyway, point taken on the data sheets - keep an eye on the web site in coming months and you'll see them loaded up.

All the best
Jon

Jon,

I had to think long and hard before composing this post, blatant advertising on forums is normally unacceptable but you appear to be getting away with it, however I feel time has come to put the story straight.

What is the difference between old Mermaid and New Mermaid? Old Mermaid were a bunch of technically focused straight shooting people under Cyril Snare.

New Mermaid, I have used the term before.........'Flog em a box' I will let other furumites make up their own minds on this thread.

I have been assured that there are NO technical issues with FPT N45, other than any involving inadequate installation not meeting FPT guidelines.

Why is New Mermaid promoting what appears to be an unsuitable power unit in response to original request by OP, because Power Torque Engineering are being put under pressure to move metal by JCB because of unrealistic sales projections.

Seems like history is repeating itself, New Mermaid picked up Beta franchise at the expense of existing local dealer on the basis of completely unrealistic sales projections, after two years New Mermaid projections proved to be utter fiction and lost the Beta franchise back to their original dealer.

New Mermaid then started selling Chinese MP small engines to replace Beta, however not content with margins went behind back of original importer, going to China tried to cut a deal direct with manufacturer, when this did not come off you dumped that brand and are putting your existing stock on Ebay.

The once solid name of Mermaid no longer exists.

As to the OP 'another' FPT dealer has suggested that they will match Mermaid quote for JCB 444.

 

[Mermaid-Jon]

Jon,

I had to think long and hard before composing this post, blatant advertising on forums is normally unacceptable but you appear to be getting away with it, however I feel time has come to put the story straight.

What is the difference between old Mermaid and New Mermaid? Old Mermaid were a bunch of technically focused straight shooting people under Cyril Snare.

New Mermaid, I have used the term before.........'Flog em a box' I will let other furumites make up their own minds on this thread.

I have been assured that there are NO technical issues with FPT N45, other than any involving inadequate installation not meeting FPT guidelines.

Why is New Mermaid promoting what appears to be an unsuitable power unit in response to original request by OP, because Power Torque Engineering are being put under pressure to move metal by JCB because of unrealistic sales projections.

Seems like history is repeating itself, New Mermaid picked up Beta franchise at the expense of existing local dealer on the basis of completely unrealistic sales projections, after two years New Mermaid projections proved to be utter fiction and lost the Beta franchise back to their original dealer.

New Mermaid then started selling Chinese MP small engines to replace Beta, however not content with margins went behind back of original importer, going to China tried to cut a deal direct with manufacturer, when this did not come off you dumped that brand and are putting your existing stock on Ebay.

The once solid name of Mermaid no longer exists.

As to the OP 'another' FPT dealer has suggested that they will match Mermaid quote for JCB 444.

LS,

You clearly have no idea what Power Torque are all about and how we conduct business to have written such a clear work of fiction. Perhaps you should take the time to visit us and then decide whether we are technically focused or just market traders.
I would be happy to host such a visit should you wish to take up the invite.

Best regards
Jon