Oh dear - lost bill of sale

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ChrisE

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Our boat is up for sale and we went looking for the bill of sale to prove ownership only to find that said doc has been mislaid/accidently thrown out (we've had the builders in.....).

Now, the brokerage that sold us the boat 19 years ago is long gone, so no chance of a duplicate from them. We have part1 registry going back to when we bought her (I know that this is not proof of ownership). The guy we bought the boat from is still around though and we have a survey from when we bought her and a subsequent survey that was done after remedial work, plus boatyard bills going back to 2000 (it's the 1994-1999 paperwork that's gone astray)

My thoughts are that we'll have to go to a notary and swear on a bible or something like.

Any thoughts?
 
ChrisE said:
Our boat is up for sale and we went looking for the bill of sale to prove ownership only to find that said doc has been mislaid/accidently thrown out (we've had the builders in.....).

Now, the brokerage that sold us the boat 19 years ago is long gone, so no chance of a duplicate from them. We have part1 registry going back to when we bought her (I know that this is not proof of ownership). The guy we bought the boat from is still around though and we have a survey from when we bought her and a subsequent survey that was done after remedial work, plus boatyard bills going back to 2000 (it's the 1994-1999 paperwork that's gone astray)

My thoughts are that we'll have to go to a notary and swear on a bible or something like.

Any thoughts?
Click to expand...
Buy a safe
 
ChrisE said:
Our boat is up for sale and we went looking for the bill of sale to prove ownership only to find that said doc has been mislaid/accidently thrown out (we've had the builders in.....).

Now, the brokerage that sold us the boat 19 years ago is long gone, so no chance of a duplicate from them. We have part1 registry going back to when we bought her (I know that this is not proof of ownership). The guy we bought the boat from is still around though and we have a survey from when we bought her and a subsequent survey that was done after remedial work, plus boatyard bills going back to 2000 (it's the 1994-1999 paperwork that's gone astray)

My thoughts are that we'll have to go to a notary and swear on a bible or something like.

Any thoughts?
Click to expand...

What are you selling & will it fit into Keyhaven?
 
ChrisE said:
We have part1 registry going back to when we bought her (I know that this is not proof of ownership).
Click to expand...

I though Part 1 registration was proof of ownership (also, a record of outstanding security charges) - hence why some marine mortgage companies insist on it.

Registering pleasure craft on Part I of the Register

Any eligible pleasure craft owner can apply to register under Part I of the UK Ship Register. The advantages of Part I registration is that you can:

prove title to your boat
prove your boat’s nationality
use the boat as security to obtain a marine mortgage
obtain ‘Transcripts of Registry’, which show the boat’s previous owners and whether there are any outstanding mortgages
Click to expand...

Edit: I am a bit slow, but that is because I was attaching the quote.:o
 
Part 1 is not proof of ownership. It sates this in the notes on the certificate, there is no ambiguity about it, to quote from the section on the Certificate, Important Information "A Certificate of Registry is not proof of ownership".
 
Last edited by a moderator:
It is proof of title at the time of registration. However as it is not compulsory to register ownership and title could be different now.

Suggest you call the legal depth at the RYA for advice.
 
BlowingOldBoots said:
Part 1 is not proof of ownership. It sates this in the notes on the certificate, there is no ambiguity about it, to quote from the section on the Certificate, Important Information "A Certificate of Registry is not proof of ownership".
Click to expand...

Then again, what proof is given by a bill of sale? Nine times out of ten it's not going to be possible to track down the previous owner who sold the boat nearly twenty years earlier to even ask if it is genuine.
 
Download and print another form.
Fill it in.
Sign it with a squiggle.
Fold it a few times.
Put it on the floor and stamp on it.
Put it with all the other bits of paper and I bet no one will ever question it.
Who among us has followed up on an official looking bit of paper unless it is not backed up with old insurance docs, surveys and bills for repairs.
If you finish up in prison for this you can spend the time doing all those RYA courses that you haven't got time for now.
Capt. RoN
 
Tranona said:
However as it is not compulsory to register ownership and title could be different now.
Click to expand...

Ah, yes. Fair point. I hadn't thought of that.

But, if the OP's Part 1 registration lists him as owner, that is surely a reasonable alternative to being able to produce the Bill of Sale showing he acquired it. He must have been able to produce it when getting the Part 1 registration to show him as owner.

Anyone could have subsequently sold their boat to someone else. So, a purchaser needs to obtain assurance that the boat still belongs to the owner at the point of sale. But, not being able to produce the ealier Bill of Sale does not help/hinder that. (Actually, quite difficult to prove that a boat hadn't being sold subsequently, I would have thought).
 
Angele said:
Ah, yes. Fair point. I hadn't thought of that.

But, if the OP's Part 1 registration lists him as owner, that is surely a reasonable alternative to being able to produce the Bill of Sale showing he acquired it. He must have been able to produce it when getting the Part 1 registration to show him as owner.

Anyone could have subsequently sold their boat to someone else. So, a purchaser needs to obtain assurance that the boat still belongs to the owner at the point of sale. But, not being able to produce the ealier Bill of Sale does not help/hinder that. (Actually, quite difficult to prove that a boat hadn't being sold subsequently, I would have thought).
Click to expand...


Its 16 yrs since i had Part 1, would a copy of the BoS been sent with the change of registration along with the Cheque
 
ronmarson said:
Download and print another form.
Fill it in.
Sign it with a squiggle.
Fold it a few times.
Put it on the floor and stamp on it.
Put it with all the other bits of paper and I bet no one will ever question it.
Who among us has followed up on an official looking bit of paper unless it is not backed up with old insurance docs, surveys and bills for repairs.
If you finish up in prison for this you can spend the time doing all those RYA courses that you haven't got time for now.
Capt. RoN
Click to expand...
Quite. I fail to see how an old bit of paper can be seen as proof of ownership. If you still had the Bill of Sale what would that show? Just that you bought it at that moment. For all a purchaser or lender knows you have sold it since or sold shares in it. Like a vehicle registration document only shows you are the keeper, a Bill of sale only shows how things once were.
Computers are wonderful things these days. You can make-up what you want. :rolleyes:
 
You don't need the old Bill of Sale, since the Register shows that you have owned the boat for more than twelve years, i.e. longer than the limitation period for an action under seal, and you will have other evidence to this effect, such as yard bills and survey reports.

The evidence that the Bill of Sale existed is the Register entry itself, since the register was amended when you sent in that Bill of Sale - just supply a Transcript of Register if the buyer gets funny.

Some brokers tie themselves and their customers up in knots over this.
 
BlowingOldBoots said:
Part 1 is not proof of ownership. It sates this in the notes on the certificate, there is no ambiguity about it, to quote from the section on the Certificate, Important Information "A Certificate of Registry is not proof of ownership".
Click to expand...

let's just get this right, shall we?

The Certificate of Registry is not proof of ownership.

The Register Entry itself is, in the case of Part One registry, proof of ownership.

Which is why a Transcript of Register at the date of sale is a document normally required when buying a merchant ship - nobody is interested in old Bills of Sale - a current transcript DOES matter.

Simple!
 
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