Safety lines - double or triple?

[MissFitz]

Apologies, I'm sure this has been covered before, but I couldn't find a thread & need an answer PDQ so......

What do the forum think of the triple-ended safety lines? Obvious advantages but I was wondering how much the extra end gets in your way when not in use.

Also, are the elasticated ones any better/more convenient than the flat ones?

(This is for offshore racing so I'm happy to pay up to get the right/safe thing.)

Thanks
Lucy

 

[Twister_Ken]

Strictly, not an answer, but on almost all boats I've raced on, no one hooks on. Two reasons, I think. Firstly, you sometimes need to move quickly and being shackled to the boat slows you down. Secondly, if you fall off there are enough crew aboard to perform a recovery. That's the theory, anyway.

 

[MissFitz]

Um, yes - but in this case only two of us on board, & a very small & unstable boat!

 

[Twister_Ken]

In that case a triple.

The long one stops you falling off and getting left behind. The short one keeps in the place where you're working and stops you getting thrown around the boat.

Yes, the spare tether does get in the way, but you soon learn how to 'manage' it.

 

[dulcibella]

My understanding is that the main objection to the double-snaplink line is that, attached to a jackstay, it is too long for many purposes so users run a risk of being tipped over the side before it comes tight. I also find that a webbing jackstay tends to get trapped in the corner of the link making progress unreliable. However, I need the full length for some aft-end jobs such as retrieving the pendulum oar of the windvane, launching and retrieving the Duogen, etc.

Rather than replacing with triple-ended lines, my solution to the jackstay issues is to thread the line under the jackstay and fasten both ends to the lifejacket harness, so halving the length and preventing hangups.

 

[Wansworth]

On an Albin Vega the sailer had a line running from the backstay to soewhere up forward,the line enabled the man to move up and down thwe deck and cockpit but not long enough to slip overside,seems quite a good idea

 

[Keen_Ed]

Hans Horrovets wasn't clipped on, and now he's dead.
Sam Goodchild though he didn't need to clip on, and he's very lucky to be alive.

ISAF OSR call for 30% of the crew to have tethers with intermediate clips.

I don't find the intermediate clip to by any sort of trouble. The one thing you do have to remember is not to clip the intermediate clip to your harness if you have a quick release tether. Kind of defeats the point of the quick release.

 

[prv]

The one thing you do have to remember is not to clip the intermediate clip to your harness if you have a quick release tether. Kind of defeats the point of the quick release.

+1

I've sewed a loop to the tether just next to the quick-release clip, to take the end clip(s) that aren't in use.

 

[MissFitz]

I don't find the intermediate clip to by any sort of trouble. The one thing you do have to remember is not to clip the intermediate clip to your harness if you have a quick release tether. Kind of defeats the point of the quick release.

I'm probably being a bit thick here, but just to check - is a quick release tether the standard kind of clip found on safety lines (as per eg http://www.force4.co.uk/7535/Baltic-Elastic-Safety-Lifeline-Triple-2-meters.html)? Or is there a different sort? And if so, where do I get one?!

 

[bbg]

If it is the kind of boat I'm thinking of, I might be able to give some insight, particularly if you are ever going to sail alone.

More generally though, three clips is best. Middle one (attached to the harness) should be releasable under load. You can either get a purpose made one with snap shackle in the middle, or if you get one with three hooks, you can clip the middle hook onto the bail of something like this

Wichard
which you can then release under load.

Use the shortest line you can. Typically move with the long one, and when you get where you want to be, clip on with the short one.

When in the cockpit I would use a long line to a central eye in the cockpit floor, then wind the tether once around a winch.

When sailing solo I would keep two tethers permanently attached to the boat. One to the central eye in the cockpit (single long tether) and a triple-hook attached to the jackstay on the highside. I would not remove the central tether from my harness until I was inside the cabin, and leave it dangling in the companionway so I could reattach before going into the cockpit. Actually I often slept inside while still attached outside. If going on deck I could attach the high-side tether to me before releasing the cockpit tether.

The advantage of this is that you can be always attached, and you don't have to reach to the deck to attach / detach things. You are doing all the work at your chest, not down on the deck.

 

[Keen_Ed]

I'm probably being a bit thick here, but just to check - is a quick release tether the standard kind of clip found on safety lines (as per eg http://www.force4.co.uk/7535/Baltic-Elastic-Safety-Lifeline-Triple-2-meters.html)? Or is there a different sort? And if so, where do I get one?!

No, one like this, with a snap shackle to attach it to your harness.

 

[bbg]

No, one like this, with a snap shackle to attach it to your harness.

Yep, that's the one. It is possible to convert the one shown in Lucy's link by adding a Wichard snap shackle (see my link), but better to get the purpose-made one in the first place.

 

[MissFitz]

I've seen those in France but time's a bit tight so I'd probably need to order it from the UK - is there anywhere that stocks them? If not then bbg's suggestion sounds good.

 

[prv]

It is possible to convert the one shown in Lucy's link by adding a Wichard snap shackle (see my link), but better to get the purpose-made one in the first place.

Mine is made from a longer-than-normal 2-hook tether made by Jimmy Green, with the snap-shackle cow-hitched into the "middle" (actually off-center to make a long leg and a short one). I then sewed the cow hitch together; I wouldn't trust my sewing for main load, but this is just to stop the knot sliding.

The release pull on the central clip is a length of webbing with three knots in it - originally a freebie lanyard from Jägermeister, so very bright orange .

I couldn't find any quick-release 3-hook tethers at the time, hence making my own, but this may have changed.

Pete

 

[Deleted member 36384]

I Would Consider A Lanyard Released Hook Dangerous on A Safety Line

I am not convinced that the Wichard solution is good enough as a quick release although I have no experience of the Wichard quick release shackle. Other pin release shackles are very difficult to undo under load requiring a significant pull on the lanyard to get it to fire. There is always the risk of the lanyard catching on a guard wire, between the body and wire, and tripping the pin as you fall overboard. In my opinion this is an unnecessary risk.

The locking safety hooks on the harness in the link on MissFitz's post are extremely safe and easily undone under load. By grasping the hook and opening the gate with one finger and then twisting the hook with a wrist action only, it pops out of a standard D ring exceptionally easy under load. Its why the hook has been shaped that way.

The safety line in bbg's post with out the locking feature on the hooks is not as secure. It is still possible to twist this hook on a jack stay line and open the gate, increasing the risk that the hook will come undone.

If one gets the chance try releasing the standard locking safety hooks under load and demonstrate it to yourself. Thats my experience.

 

[bbg]

If this is for a Classe Mini race you need to read the Classe rules. They require

Harness line equipped with a maximum 2 metres long tether with an opening snap shackle under tension (ORC)

 

[Deleted member 36384]

If this is for a Classe Mini race you need to read the Classe rules. They require

My opinion is not based on any rules, just my experience. Whatever way you want to cut it a snap shackle with a lanyard is a release risk through snagging.

 

[bbg]

I am not convinced that the Wichard solution is good enough as a quick release although I have no experience of the Wichard quick release shackle. Other pin release shackles are very difficult to undo under load requiring a significant pull on the lanyard to get it to fire. There is always the risk of the lanyard catching on a guard wire, between the body and wire, and tripping the pin as you fall overboard. In my opinion this is an unnecessary risk.

The locking safety hooks on the harness in the link on MissFitz's post are extremely safe and easily undone under load. By grasping the hook and opening the gate with one finger and then twisting the hook with a wrist action only, it pops out of a standard D ring exceptionally easy under load. Its why the hook has been shaped that way.

The safety line in bbg's post with out the locking feature on the hooks is not as secure. It is still possible to twist this hook on a jack stay line and open the gate, increasing the risk that the hook will come undone.

If one gets the chance try releasing the standard locking safety hooks under load and demonstrate it to yourself. Thats my experience.

You have a good point about the particular shackle that I posted a link to.

One of these
Wichard 1

or these

Wichard 2

might be better, but with Wichard 2 I would be concerned about losing my finger.

The tether hooks that I have seen are impossible to release under load.

 

[MissFitz]

The tether hooks that I have seen are impossible to release under load.

It certainly says on the Force 4 website, under the entries for Spinlock safety lines: 'Because all safety lines become unreleasable under load, we recommend always wearing a Spinlock S" Cutter or dedicated knife for emergency use.'

 

[prv]

The safety line in bbg's post with out the locking feature on the hooks is not as secure. It is still possible to twist this hook on a jack stay line and open the gate, increasing the risk that the hook will come undone.

I'm not certain which one you mean, as bbg hasn't posted any safety lines, just quick-release snap-shackles of various kinds. However, assuming you meant the one posted by Keen Ed, which bbg then quoted, then I don't think they're they kind you think they are.

One of the tethers on KS (not my 3-hook one) uses these clips. They do have a locking feature, which is that you need to squeeze the yellow plastic covering inwards, towards the mouth of the hook, before it will open. The bail across the mouth of the hook will not open unless the plastic part is pushed firmly towards it first, so I can't see any way it can unclip itself by turning round a D-ring as the old single-action clips could.

Pete