Gybing downwind or tacking downwind

[bbg]

This arises from another thread, and rather than hijack that thread I thought I'd start a new one.

By convention:
A tack is when the wind (apparent) passes around the front of the mast - ie across the bow - you can tell this quite easily because the sails flap....

A Gybe is when the wind (apparent) passes around the back of the mast - ie across the stern - you can tell this quite easily because the sails do not flap

I don't think this is right with the "conventions", because with the exception of a very few modern boats, there is little significant difference in the apparent wind angle and the true wind angle, particularly during these maneouvres. For all intents and purposes, and for decades if not centuries, there was no need to put the word "apparent" in, because there was no real difference (for the purposes of tacking and gybing).

The language I was taught is that a tack occurs when the boat changes tack, with the bow of the boat passing through the eye of the wind. A gybe is when a boat changes tack, with the stern of the boat passing through the eye of the wind. For me, this has to refer to to the true wind.

If the definition of tacking and gybing is done by reference to the apparent wind, BMW Oracle will have two different names for exactly the same maneouvre, depending on the speed of the boat. Which would be silly. And two different boats (with very different speeds) could make the same course change, and there would be different names for the maneouvres. Again, silly.

IMHO, the phrase "tacking downwind" was invented by people who thought the quickest way to go downwind was to point the boat at the destination and trim the sails accordingly. Even if that meant DDW. When they saw racers gybing downwind, and being faster, the only thing they could relate it to was beating, or tacking to windward. So they mistakenly started calling it tacking downwind.

I will admit that I have not been in the top end racing scene for over a decade, so maybe terminology has changed. But at the time, no-one I knew referred to tacking downwind. We talked about gybing downwind. Anyone who talked about tacking downwind would be laughed at.

But (having given my opinion) I'm going to add a poll, out of interest. It might take me a minute to get the poll up, so be patient.

 

[fireball]

All sailing is done in apparent wind .... the only time the boat sees true wind is when it's tied up or at anchor (and the anchor isn't dragging).

It would be interesting to hear from BMW Oracle on what happens on their vessel - but if they are heading "down wind" faster than true wind and during the change of direction they do not drop below true wind speed then the apparent wind is going to cross the bow - Although they would be bearing away (from true and apparent wind) to achieve the manoeuvre ...

My (possibly incorrect) statement on tacking and gybing was in response to Halfway's statement that apparent wind goes around the bow during a gybe ... which depends on the definition of a gybe.

 

[nmeyrick]

The language I was taught is that a tack occurs when the boat changes tack, with the bow of the boat passing through the eye of the wind. A gybe is when a boat changes tack, with the stern of the boat passing through the eye of the wind. For me, this has to refer to to the true wind.

But a boat sails on her apparent wind. For what its worth I think of the significant difference between tacking a gybing as tack = sails are close hauled and only move a short distance so is relatively straightforward. Gybe = sails are a long way out and main will slam across quickly taking someone's head off if I don't take any action to control it.

I realise this is a practical rather than a technical definition, but it describes the type of manoeuvre and the steps I need to go through. If BMW Oracle has an apparent wind so far forward that the manoeuvre is more like a tack than a gybe in terms of how the sails are set and the actions required to execute the evolution, I don't have a problem with calling it a tack, even if at low boat speed it still gybes - the two maneuvres are distincly different.

Of course in Nelson's day square riggers used to gybe upwind, (technically wear ship) so as to avoid being caught in irons.

 

[snowleopard]

We are all agreed, I think, that the act of changing from port tack to starboard tack is called tacking when the wind passes across the bows and gybing when it is across the stern.

The term 'tacking' has a second meaning when it relates to a course: it means to proceed towards the destination in a series of zig-zag courses. The term 'gybing' has only ever had the one meaning.

Because the idea of sailing faster to a downwind desitnation by alternately going on port and starboard tacks is a new one, there is no traditional phrase so one has been made up.

The widely accepted term 'tacking downwind' means making a downwind course by sailing on alternate tacks.

 

[dt4134]

I concur with Fireball. True wind is a modern term and is something that can only really be obtained accurately from instruments. Apparent wind is what sailors have always felt, albeit it will have been always necessary to estimate the true wind to determine whether a course change would involve, for example, a gybe.

In heavy weather it is pretty standard to try to go as fast as possible for a gybe in order to reduce the forces on the mainsail and spinnaker.

I've never tried it going faster than the wind (except in very light airs). Once saw a confused helm accidentally turn head through the wind under spinnaker - the pole bought it - so I don't imagine it would be easy.

 

[bbg]

The term 'tacking' has a second meaning when it relates to a course: it means to proceed towards the destination in a series of zig-zag courses. The term 'gybing' has only ever had the one meaning.

This is the part I disagree with. To me, "tacking" means the single course change (incorporating a change of tack from stbd to port or vice-versa), not multiple course changes. If you think it has a second (historically supported) meaning, please provide references.

Because the idea of sailing faster to a downwind desitnation by alternately going on port and starboard tacks is a new one, there is no traditional phrase so one has been made up.

The widely accepted term 'tacking downwind' means making a downwind course by sailing on alternate tacks.

I am not so sure about the first part, because I suspect that even in the days of square riggers, gybing downwind was faster than DDW. As to whether the term "tacking downwind" is widely accepted, it certainly wasn't accepted (at all) by the people I raced with and against in the 90s. It is the point of my poll to find out how widely accepted it is today.

As for Fireball and nmeyrick, of course I accept all sailing appears to be done in apparent wind, and I suspect (but don't know) that when BMW Oracle gybes, her bows (all three of them) pass through the eye of the APPARENT wind. But lets leave that specific case out for a moment. Let's talk about the tens (hundreds?) of thousands of boats - the vast majority - that can't sail faster than the TWS. This poll is for them. (Even though I think it should make no difference to what we call the maneouvre.)

 

[Woodlouse]

We are all agreed, I think, that the act of changing from port tack to starboard tack is called tacking when the wind passes across the bows and gybing when it is across the stern.

The term 'tacking' has a second meaning when it relates to a course: it means to proceed towards the destination in a series of zig-zag courses. The term 'gybing' has only ever had the one meaning.

Because the idea of sailing faster to a downwind desitnation by alternately going on port and starboard tacks is a new one, there is no traditional phrase so one has been made up.

The widely accepted term 'tacking downwind' means making a downwind course by sailing on alternate tacks.

I would have said that the correct term for a zig-zag course was beating. So, beating downwind anyone? Tis the term I use.

As for calling the maneuver a tack or a gybe, just realise that the apparent wind angle is never going to be coming from dead down wind. Remember, if you are broad reaching on starboard tack, then the apparent wind will be on your starboard bow (if you are in BMW Oracle or something else flippin' quick). When you bear away, you will still be turning away from the wind, both apparent and true, and it will still be the stern going though the wind, albeit far quicker and more suddenly than you would ever like to appreciate on a slower boat. At no point would you have the part of tacking where you're head to wind and the sails flap, which is what makes tacking so much gentler for a fore and aft rigged vessel.

The reason square riggers often wear around instead of tacking is because a gybe is gentler on the crew and gear than a tack for that form of sail plan.

 

[bbg]

I concur with Fireball. True wind is a modern term and is something that can only really be obtained accurately from instruments.

I suspect a certain Sir Francis Beaufortwould disagree with you - at least in principle - were he still alive.

 

[dt4134]

As to whether the term "tacking downwind" is widely accepted, it certainly wasn't accepted (at all) by the people I raced with and against in the 90s. It is the point of my poll to find out how widely accepted it is today.

That's interesting. I'd consider the terms "tacking downwind" and "gybing downwind" to be pretty readily understood in racing circles these days and to be synonymous. I would consider neither to refer to the act of changing course but rather to refer to the process of getting to the leeward mark as fast as possible by sailing the optimum angle to the wind on alternate tacks to maximise the velocity to leeward under spinnaker (note to leeward not necessarily to the mark) rather than just blithely pointing at the mark. I can't believe the concept is that recent (although IOR boats do seem to suffer less on a dead run than boats designed for IRC) and I've heard various other names for it.

 

[dt4134]

I suspect a certain Sir Francis Beaufortwould disagree with you - at least in principle - were he still alive.

OK, I'll accept that. I still believe that it is a term that is considerably more frequently used since the advent of integrated electronic instruments.

 

[Ubergeekian]

The term 'tacking' has a second meaning when it relates to a course: it means to proceed towards the destination in a series of zig-zag courses. The term 'gybing' has only ever had the one meaning.

Historically I think one beat to windward in a series of boards between which one usually tacked or went aboutbut occasionally, in some circumstances gybed.

Nowadays - ah, standards of education have declined - one tacks from tck to tack while tacking. Or gybes.

Going from close hauled on starboard tack the long way round (boom goes bang) to end up close hauled on port tack is definitely gybing, whereas doing it the short way is tacking. The same principal should apply while zigzagging downwind.

 

[HoratioHB]

We are all agreed, I think, that the act of changing from port tack to starboard tack is called tacking when the wind passes across the bows and gybing when it is across the stern.

The term 'tacking' has a second meaning when it relates to a course: it means to proceed towards the destination in a series of zig-zag courses. The term 'gybing' has only ever had the one meaning.

Because the idea of sailing faster to a downwind desitnation by alternately going on port and starboard tacks is a new one, there is no traditional phrase so one has been made up.

The widely accepted term 'tacking downwind' means making a downwind course by sailing on alternate tacks.

Agree with Snowy on this except this is not a 'new one' we were using the phrase downwind tacking to mean alternate downind jibes, ie zigzagging downwind to maximise velocity towards the mark in the early seventies. It is a bit contradictory but many yotties I know have used the phrase for years.

 

[bbg]

FWIW, I consider that I have tacked downwind once.

Racing in J24s, only two boats in the fleet went out because it was blowing hard. Really hard. The committee boat set a course - it is, after all, the skipper's decision on whether or not to begin or continue racing. But it was blowing really hard.

Both boats started and completed the windward leg. We were in second place going round the ww mark. Neither boat set a kite (we learned later that both boats had them ready to hoist, and we were both watching the other to see if they would hoist - happily neither did). Instead of gybing in that wind, with the boom crashing across, both boats rounded up and tacked, repeatedly, to get to the leeward mark.

We rounded the mark and started heading back up towards the finish. The race was abandoned when the committee boat was seen dashing past us, downwind, chasing the finishing pin. Did I mention it was blowing hard?

 

[Alfie168]

As other have said, if you are bow to wind you are tacking, if your stern is to the wind you are gybing. I can understand frequent gybing being referred to as 'tacking downwind' as it is descriptive of whats happening. A such I have no problem with people saying it, and I'm not going to be the one who stands up in the bar and says "Ectually old man, you are being technically defective in your description". Lifes too short, and I don't want a black eye.

Many a time have I chosen to tack round when a gybe would have been technically called for. Sometimes when its very windy discretion is the better part of valour. My most hair raising Gybe was racing off Cumbrae in a Wayfarer. Rounding up to tack was not an option, so we just got the old bird flying as fast and as level as we could, and when we thought it had gone a touch quieter we gybed, and miracle of miracles it went perfectly. I wish they all did

We were sailing in the aftermath of a storm that had seen the Enterprise Nationals cancelled a few days previously, so I do assure you it was windy. Durign the race a Loch Long keelboat sank, and a 505 got stuck on the rocks at the North end of Cumbrae. SWMBO has never forgiven me for taking her out in that.

Tim

 

[fireball]

FWIW, I consider that I have tacked downwind once.

Racing in J24s, only two boats in the fleet went out because it was blowing hard. Really hard. The committee boat set a course - it is, after all, the skipper's decision on whether or not to begin or continue racing. But it was blowing really hard.

Both boats started and completed the windward leg. We were in second place going round the ww mark. Neither boat set a kite (we learned later that both boats had them ready to hoist, and we were both watching the other to see if they would hoist - happily neither did). Instead of gybing in that wind, with the boom crashing across, both boats rounded up and tacked, repeatedly, to get to the leeward mark.

We rounded the mark and started heading back up towards the finish. The race was abandoned when the committee boat was seen dashing past us, downwind, chasing the finishing pin. Did I mention it was blowing hard?

What I would consider 'Wearing Round' ... ie rounding up and tacking before bearing away... and done that many times myself (it's quicker to stay upright than go for a swim!)... in racing circles with these new fangled asymetrics the coverall term for making your way downwind using a series of gybes can equally be called "tacking downwind"

 

[lw395]

Gybing

I think most of us call it a gybe when we turn through the true downwind direction.
If you're gybing a skiff, RS800, sailboard, landyacht, the apparent wind may or may not go around the front, depending whether you slow down much in the gybe. If the wind is stronger at the masthead than deck level, the apparent wind may be momentarily opposite at different levels so you could get very tied up in terminology. In lighter winds, what the apparent wind does locally while you are heaving the main across is probably quite complex.

We use 'tacking downwind' to mean sailing a series of broad reaches with gybes in between. Not perhaps logical but it's what everybody says if they are discussing the merits of sailing the angles vs 'soaking' an asymmetric boat closer to downwind. 'Beating Downwind' might have been a better term, but I've never heard it. But we also use 'short tacking' (eg up a tidal shore) in a similar way.

'Wearing around' seems a bit confusing, in a dinghy it is used to mean tacking when a gybe would be more direct, yet one of the posts above suggests it means vice-versa in a square rigger? Does it just mean going the long way? One online reference says 'wear around' is a tack and 'wear ship' is to gybe. I'll be careful about that if I ever get a square rigger.

 

[Keen_Ed]

IMHO:

A) The process of sailing higher to develop more apparent - especially in very light conditions - and then making way downwind in a series of boards can be called tacking downwind.

B) But each change of direction is a gybe.

c) When you turn with the stern to the true wind, it's a gybe, even if you're going fast enough to bring the apparent round the bow - as seen on foiling moths etc.

 

[Keen_Ed]

'Wearing around' seems a bit confusing, in a dinghy it is used to mean tacking when a gybe would be more direct, yet one of the posts above suggests it means vice-versa in a square rigger? Does it just mean going the long way? One online reference says 'wear around' is a tack and 'wear ship' is to gybe. I'll be careful about that if I ever get a square rigger.

IMHO, wearing ship in a square rigger is gybing where you might have tacked. Tacking a square rig can be dangerous, because all the staying is designed for the wind to be from aft or the side - pushing backwards against the forestays is more risky. So the safe option is to avoid backing the square sails - a necessary part of tacking - and gybe round.

So wearing is taking the safe option - in a square rigger, gybing instead of the tack, and in a fore and aft rigged boat tacking instead of the gybe.

 

[nmeyrick]

One online reference says 'wear around' is a tack and 'wear ship' is to gybe. I'll be careful about that if I ever get a square rigger.

They did seem prone to confusing terminology - how many times on a windy night must the helmsman have wondered whether the Master had just asked him to alter course to Starboard or to Larboard?

 

[RAI]

my 2 cents

Port tack and starboard tack also have specific meanings in racing rules and colregs I believe. Whereas I'm not sure if port and starboard gybes have a particular meaning.

Although there is "goosewing gybe".

So my vote goes for "a gybe" or "gybing" being a particular kind of manoeuvre that requires a bit more care and coordination, when compared to "a tack" or "tacking", which involves somewhat different activities.

I always thought the expression "tacking down wind" was a bit odd as it usually involves a series of gybes but thought maybe the definition and use of "port tack" or "starboard tack" in the race rules/colregs would also be applicable.

Then I discovered that various very fast sailing "platforms" (yes they call them platforms these days) actually perform the same manoeuvre as a "tack" to respond to apparent wind, even if the true wind is trailing behind them.

As the apparent wind is the deciding factor for how the manoeuvre is performed and the true wind could be in a different directions, depending where it is measured (race officer's boat?), I think its logical that fast sailing platforms might truly tack down wind. While us common folk do it with gybes (or on forums, perhaps with jibes).