racing - luffing rights

[wotayottie]

I cant get my mind round the 2 boat lengths rule despite reading Willis half a dozen times. Can someone clarify for me.

As I read it, if you get an overlap and are more than 2 boat lengths to leeward you can luff but then when you have luffed to the point where you are withing 2 boat lengths , you cant luff any more. Yet there are lots of other illustrations that show any boat which overlaps to leeward having luffing rights. So where does the 2 boat length bit come in?

 

[Twister_Ken]

Dunno, my racing rules knowledge is a decade or more out of date.

But, a word of caution. Getting involved one-on-one in a luffing match is the quick way to finish down the fleet. Only if you're trying to sail a rival down the fleet (last race of a series?) is it worthwhile. Otherwise all you're doing is slowing yourself and one competitor down, while the rest of the fleet gets on with arriving at the next corner before you.

Edit: honourable exception if you're trying to squeeze someone off the start line.

 

[flaming]

I cant get my mind round the 2 boat lengths rule despite reading Willis half a dozen times. Can someone clarify for me.

As I read it, if you get an overlap and are more than 2 boat lengths to leeward you can luff but then when you have luffed to the point where you are withing 2 boat lengths , you cant luff any more. Yet there are lots of other illustrations that show any boat which overlaps to leeward having luffing rights. So where does the 2 boat length bit come in?

It's all to do with how the overlap began.

If leward established the overlap from clear astern, and within 2 boat length to leward then she is limited to sailing her propper course. It's worth noting that this is defined as "A course a boat would sail to finish as soon as possible in the absence of the other boats referred to in the rule using the term."
Which means if you sail under another boat and collapse your spinnaker in their lee you are not allowed to come up and fill it, as that would not be your course in the absence of the other boat.

If however leward obtains her overlap more than two boatlengths away from windward then there is no such restriction. This applies even if leward comes up and closes the distance to less than 2 boat lengths, provided that the overlap was maintained all the time.

And if the overlap began because either boat tacked or gybed then there is no limitation to propper course.

 

[flaming]

Dunno, my racing rules knowledge is a decade or more out of date.

But, a word of caution. Getting involved one-on-one in a luffing match is the quick way to finish down the fleet. Only if you're trying to sail a rival down the fleet (last race of a series?) is it worthwhile. Otherwise all you're doing is slowing yourself and one competitor down, while the rest of the fleet gets on with arriving at the next corner before you.

Edit: honourable exception if you're trying to squeeze someone off the start line.

Indeed. The correct thing to do is to make it clear very early that you will not be passed to windward, most people will then give up.

 

[wotayottie]

Let me see if I've got this right:

1/ being a faster boat I overtake to leeward someone sailing a similar course. Because I've come from clear atern and am withing 2 boat lengths of him, I do not have luffing rights.

2/ I am in a slower boat and someone gets an overlap to windward of me but within 2 boat lengths - I do have luffing rights cos I didnt get the overlap from astern.

3/ I'm on one tack, the other boat is on the tack laying the mark. I tack to I am just ahead of him on a parallel tack and to leeward but cant make the mark. I'm allowed to luff him

4/ when within three boat lengths of the mark, the 2 boat length rule no longer applies and you can luff up if thats whats required to give you room to round the mark.

 

[flaming]

Let me see if I've got this right:

1/ being a faster boat I overtake to leeward someone sailing a similar course. Because I've come from clear atern and am withing 2 boat lengths of him, I do not have luffing rights.

2/ I am in a slower boat and someone gets an overlap to windward of me but within 2 boat lengths - I do have luffing rights cos I didnt get the overlap from astern.

Yes, but to clarify, it is the point of first overlap that matters. If you are the faster boat and aproach a slower boat and first establish the overlap within 2 boat lengths to leward you donot have luffing rights. But if you first establish the overlap more than 2 boat lengths to leward you can still sail any course you feel like.
If you really want to luff someone when you have come from astern, just sail up alongside them, throw the boom across, fill the main, then throw it back. Now you established the overlap by gybing. Quite why you would do this outside of match racing is beyond me though.

And if the faster boat goes to windward when overtaking it does not matter how far away, the slower leward boat can luff. Although obviously this gets more difficult more the further away the windward boat is.

 

[flaming]

Let me see if I've got this right:

3/ I'm on one tack, the other boat is on the tack laying the mark. I tack to I am just ahead of him on a parallel tack and to leeward but cant make the mark. I'm allowed to luff him

4/ when within three boat lengths of the mark, the 2 boat length rule no longer applies and you can luff up if thats whats required to give you room to round the mark.

You editied that while I was typing!

3. Yes, PROVIDED you completed your tack outside of the three boat length zone. If you tack wthin the zone you cannot take any boat that was fetching the mark above close hauled. Just another rule that makes the port tack layline a really bad idea in a busy fleet.

4. Erm, yes, I suppose so. if you were overlaped on entering the zone then you are entitled to mark room.

Mark-Room -- Room for a boat to sail to the mark, and then room to sail her
proper course while at the mark. However, mark-room does not include
room to tack unless the boat is overlapped to windward and on the inside of
the boat required to give mark-room.

So you would be allowed to sail to the mark. Although it should be noted that if you failed to get there without tacking you would probably have broken rule 17 if you'd come from behind.

 

[dt4134]

And if you establish the overlap to leeward within two boat lengths then sail further away whilst maintaining the overlap you gain luffing rights when you come back.

In practice it very rarely pays to get involved in a luffing war in fleet racing.

For a start you have to be thoroughly conversant with the rules to avoid an infringement and your crew need to be slick to maintain trim throughout the manouvre.

And on top of all that you've wasted time against the other boats in the fleet. Taken to extremes all luffing is going to get you is second last.

It is handy to encourage a faster boat to sail through your lee, but you could usually drop the hint through positioning anyway.

If someone luffs you, avoid contact. If you feel infringed, protest. You can always withdraw the protest if you discover they had rights and if there's no contact it's pretty hard to lose.

 

[dt4134]

4/ when within three boat lengths of the mark, the 2 boat length rule no longer applies and you can luff up if thats whats required to give you room to round the mark.

Providing you complete your tack within three boat lengths (or two or four if the SI's have changed it) you are allowed to sail your proper course around the mark, which includes shooting it. If you are slightly low of the mark you would do that anyway in the absence of the other boat.

Technically you are luffing up to round the mark in the normal sailing sense, but it is not luffing someone in the racing sense of luffing.

 

[flaming]

Providing you complete your tack within three boat lengths (or two or four if the SI's have changed it) you are allowed to sail your proper course around the mark, which includes shooting it. If you are slightly low of the mark you would do that anyway in the absence of the other boat.

Not necessarily if there was another boat fetching the mark that you will interfere with.

18.3 Tacking When Approaching a Mark
If two boats were approaching a mark on opposite tacks and one of
them changes tack, and as a result is subject to rule 13 in the zone
when the other is fetching the mark, rule 18.2 does not thereafter
apply. The boat that changed tack
(a) shall not cause the other boat to sail above close-hauled to
avoid her or prevent the other boat from passing the mark on
the required side, and
(b) shall give mark-room if the other boat becomes overlapped
inside her.

So that means that if you tack inside the zone you must not take a boat that did not tack inside the zone, and does not need to tack to round the mark, above closehauled. This doesn't mean you can't luff them up above the course they are sailing, if they are overstood and not closehauled, but it's a dangerous game.

 

[dt4134]

Hi Flaming, your right, it was a typo, I meant 'outside' rather than 'within'.

 

[wotayottie]

Thanks folks - I think I understand. No intention of trying to get involved in luffing but with a PY fleet with handicaps ranging from the low 800s to 1250 and with boats that point quite differently, we do get lots of overtaking particularly when using a laid course and doing laps.

Anyway, onto the next few pages of Willis. Autumn series starts this weekend so it's revision time

 

[dt4134]

Best of luck with the racing.

By the way, a leeward boat that points higher than a windward boat is not luffing that boat just because his proper course is closer to the wind.

Ok, you're more likely to get this downwind where a fleet has a mixture of symmetric & asymmetric spinnakers. However, if you get into the position of being the windward boat but not being as close-winded on a beat you just have to keep clear.

 

[wotayottie]

Now that is interesting. We're not as close winded as for example a First (which is as racy as we get) but we are more close winded than the bilgies. So what you are saying is that I can creep up to leeward of a bilgie and simply sail my normal course hard on the wind even if I'm less than 2 boat lengths away and he has to luff up.

This might well be a better overtaking manoeuvre for me since if I do so to windward he can luff me.

 

[dt4134]

Yes, you can do that. You certainly shouldn't let them make you bear off below your proper course, but you can't deliberately pinch up to cause them problems (except of course where you have luffing rights).

Tactically you need to think about the other boats at the start. You don't want a closer-winded boat below you shortly after the start. Even having one or two of those bilge-keelers just above you can inconvenience & distract you regardless of what the rules say.