What does a marina consider "liveaboard"?

[lindsay]

What does a marina consider \"liveaboard\"?

With a few minutes to kill at the end of my "internet cafe hour" in the Med, I clicked idly onto the ad for Universal Marina Berths on the Hamble on the YBW site.

Liveaboards are not allowed, they say. They define liveaboard as " spending more than 8 nights on board in any 30 days". I have been out of the UK for a dozen years or so - is this standard? If so, is there anywhere you can liveaboard on the south coast?

 

[Anonymous]

Re: What does a marina consider \"liveaboard\"?

Chichester Marina (Premier) were very happy to accept liveaboards when we were there 2004/5 and Falmouth Marina (also Premier) offered us a place as liveaboards. We found Chi Marina to be very accommodating, secure and with excellent parking for self and guests. You probably wouldn't want to be there without a car unless you are an enthusiastic cyclist.

 

[Richard10002]

Re: What does a marina consider \"liveaboard\"?

[ QUOTE ]
Liveaboards are not allowed, they say. They define liveaboard as " spending more than 8 nights on board in any 30 days".

[/ QUOTE ]

Crikey! that would make anyone who made good use of their boat a liveaboards.

Fri/Sat/Sun night x 4 in a good month

14 nights during a summer holiday with bad weather.

I wonder how they monitor, and whether they average it out over a year.

Cheers

Richard

 

[damo]

Re: What does a marina consider \"liveaboard\"?

You will probably find that it is a frightener to put people off considering the place for living aboard. I expect that in practise it won't be an issue for long weekends or a week or two at a time.

The concern for marinas is for the appearance of the boat, potential hassle and extra workload, and legal expense to remove no-longer welcome berth holders. It is an unfortunate fact that some liveaboards have created the situation where marinas are now reluctant to put themselves in a potentially difficult position.

If it is something that you are considering then discuss it with the manager, and have ready pics of your boat, proof of employment, references from previous places the boat has been berthed etc.

 

[VicMallows]

Re: What does a marina consider \"liveaboard\"?

MDL state 'no more than 3 sucessive nights' in their T&Cs. I really can't see how this can apply if you are a visitor paying fees on a daily basis but it certainly applies in respect of your own privately owned berth within their marinas!.

Vic

 

[damo]

Re: What does a marina consider \"liveaboard\"?

They can point to the T&C if there is an issue, and remove the boat from the marina. In practise it isn't a problem, if the berth holder is sensible about it.

FWIW Quay Marinas state

"You must not use any vessel occupying a berth provided by us for residential purposes without obtaining our prior written consent"

Criteria include

"using your vessel as principal place of residence; staying on board in excess of an average of 3 nights per week over a 12 week period;using the marina as a mailing address"

 

[paulineb]

Re: What does a marina consider \"liveaboard\"?

We lived aboard in Brighton marina for 3 years and still have friends who liveboard there.

 

[captainslarty]

Probably this............ LOL

..

 

[paulineb]

Re: Probably this............ LOL

our friends are on lots of boats, but not that one. is that in Brighton then ?

 

[captainslarty]

Re: Probably this............ LOL

No PB, just good ol' La Coruna in Summer, selling high price articles to yachtsmen....
The fuel cans we found floating in the marina.. and most of the fenders too... life is good sometime lol..

Fuel cans 10 euros each in the silly season..... mmmmmmmmmmm haaaaaaaaaaaaa

 

[ashanta]

Re: What does a marina consider \"liveaboard\"?

I think they would have to reflect council tax in their charges to anyone living aboard as the local council would insist on the council tax be considered in the local business rates. This is why live aboard numbers are usually set by the council and the marina (in most cases it is agreed as none) and the liveaboard would be charged mooring fees that would reflect the element of Council tax due. In the past I believe liveaboards have been in marinas without local council's knowledge.

 

[damo]

Re: What does a marina consider \"liveaboard\"?

I understand that a recent ruling was that if the berth/mooring was at the whim of the marina, there was no fixed residence for the liveaboard vessel, so council tax could not be levied. (Similar I suppose to someone "living" in an hotel)

In my own case, the marina will have nothing to do with council tax, and that is stated in my T&C. I can't remember where I downloaded this from but FWIW:-

------------------------------------------------------------------
Council Tax and Liveaboard

In a marina you have to prove that you do not have exclusive right to your berth as per their example below. This means that the commercial business rates cover moorings under the MMR regs and it is basically too dificult for the VOA to asses a berth so thus an indivual "boat" becomes exempt.

If there is case law to back this up then please let me know as I have not heard of any court action around this subject and am often asked about it.

As it happens Brighton Marina is a marina in name only and is not classed as a marina by the VOA as it was formed by an act of parliament as a harbour/port, so all bets are off and you will find yourelf with a CT bill if you live there. Assuming I suppose that you mention it. It would, in theory, be possible to move your boat a lot within Brighton Marina, I assume with the co-opertaion of premier and in consequence avoid CT.

This is the section from the Rating Manual, Volume 5, Section 670 that describes a Multiple Mooring...


"5.3 Multiple Moorings

Where on any land there are two or more moorings which -

(a) are owned by the same person,

(b) are not domestic property, and

(c) are separately occupied, or available for separate occupation, by persons other than that person,

a Valuation Officer may determine that, for the purposes of the compilation or alteration of a local non-domestic Rating List, all or any of the moorings, or all or any of them together with any adjacent moorings or land owned and occupied by that person, shall be treated as one hereditament. (The Non-Domestic Rating (Multiple Moorings) Regulations 1992 (SI 1992/557).)

The reference to owner enables a VO to include within a single assessment all moorings within one ownership whether occupied or not at the time of valuation. Consequently there will be no need to adjust valuations as moorings are let or become vacant.

The word "adjacent" should be construed narrowly and in the context of the provision taken to refer to moorings and/or land which are either contiguous or separated only by a footpath or some other narrow strip of land in another ownership."

This is from Practice Note 7, that the Valuation Office uses when assessing boats for the purpose of Council Tax, the section that they tend to refer to is Section 6 which states...
"6. Summary of Policy

6.1 The policy that the legislation is intended to achieve can be summarised as follows. Although this specifically refers to boats and moorings the same principles apply to caravans and their pitches.

a) If a boat which is someone's sole or main residence is moored 'permanently' at a mooring, then the mooring is domestic property, and both the mooring and the boat are subject to Council Tax.

b) If a boat which is someone's sole or main residence stops at a mooring and moves away for a sufficiently long period (see 6.2), and it seems that when next in use that mooring will be used by that same boat or another boat which is someone's sole or main residence, then the mooring is domestic but the mooring only is subject to Council Tax.

c) If a boat which is someone's sole or main residence is moored at a mooring and moves away, and it seems that when next in use the mooring will be used by a non-sole or main residence boat, then the mooring is non-domestic and subject to non-domestic rates.

d) If there is a mooring with no way of telling what sort of craft will be moored at it, then it is non-domestic and subject to non-domestic rates.

6.2 Whether occupation by a boat or caravan, used as a sole or main residence, of a mooring or pitch can be treated as sufficiently permanent is a question of fact and degree. As a general rule, where a dwelling boat or caravan occupies a mooring or pitch for a substantial period of time - such duration would usually be for 12 months or more - it should be entered in valuation list, even if it moves away for brief periods of say 2 to 4 weeks, provided it then returns to its original mooring or pitch. The question to be asked is whether the occupation can be characterised as that of a 'settler' or a 'wayfarer'. If the latter, then only the mooring or pitch should be valued.

6.3 Even if the sole or main resident of a caravan or boat does not have exclusive rights to a particular pitch or mooring if, in practice, the caravan or boat occupies the land with sufficient permanence it will be classed as domestic property, and the value included in the Council Tax banding."


Also included is the section that deals with Multiple Moorings

"8. Multiple Moorings and Composite Hereditaments

8.1 If there are a number of adjacent moorings to which the circumstances in 6.1 (b) apply they will all form part of one hereditament and will be a single "dwelling" subject to one Council Tax band unless, it is clear that the boat owner is in exclusive possession of the mooring, when a separate banding will apply.

8.2 If there are a number of adjacent moorings, some of which are used by boats which are sole or main residences and some of which are used by pleasure boats, but no boat owners have exclusive possession of any particular mooring, there would appear to be a composite hereditament occupied by the owner of the moorings."


This example is also provided to help Valuation Officers with assessments and should make sense of the above...


"A man lives on a motor cruiser with living accommodation on board. He rents a berth in a marina comprising a finger pontoon at right angles to the bank with water supply and sewage pump-out. The marina operator controls access to the site and reserves a continual right to move the boat from its mooring. When the boat is absent, as it frequently is for weekends and holidays, and even though the boat owner pays rent continuously in order to reserve a berth at the site, the marina operator allows other boats to use the mooring.

Although the mooring is virtually in permanent use and affords self-containment to any boat with living accommodation, the cruiser owner's occupation of the mooring is non-exclusive and insufficiently permanent for him to be liable for Council Tax. The marina operator is in paramount occupation of the mooring for the purposes of his business of running a marina. If the other boats which use the mooring are also someone's sole or main residence, only the mooring would be domestic property and subject to banding. The boat itself would not be included in the valuation.

If the other boats which use the mooring are not someone's sole or main residence or there is no way of knowing what their use would be, the mooring will be non-domestic. If there are two or more such moorings in the marina, all the moorings and land under the control of the marina operator should be treated as one hereditament by virtue of the Multiple Moorings Regulations. The marina operator will be in permanent occupation."

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[ashanta]

Re: What does a marina consider \"liveaboard\"?

I live aboard. I pay for a class A residential mooring which has to registered with local council which is why the marina is limited in the number of residential moorings it can have within the marina. The marina pay business rates to the council which reflects the residential moorings. This means that I am able to enjoy all the services that is available all local residents regardless that I am living on a boat rather a house.
People who live aboard marinas that do not provide "residential moorings2 but turn a blind will not be eligible for local services or even any voting.

 

[deanwray]

Re: Probably this............ LOL

Hi, new to the forum and have found some interesting and useful information.

Wondered if I could get some advice.

I have a chance to work in Brighton (actually live in Milton Keynes and Yorkshire, although main residence is in Milton Keynes). I was thinking about a 12 month let on a flat or just bed and breakfasts but then memories of my childhood and my father’s boat on Windermere came to me. Long story short, I'm looking at a 41 -43ft craft to store at BM and stay through the week rather than bed and breakfasts, however I may choose to stay occasional weekends to go out on trips. My main residence will always be Milton Keynes and I will probably look to work from home some days (maybe a week in some cases and as often as I can).

Would anyone see this as a potential problem?

Thanks

 

[MajorMajor]

Living aboard

I'm thinking of the same thing and would be interested to know whether you did it, whether it worked for you and so on.