Head sail sizes.

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BlueSkyNick

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Have been thinking about a smaller sail - 59sq metres of genoa is going to be a bit much for SWMBO and I, without power winches. Its fine with 2 or 3 chaps on board and the opportunity to unfurl the lot, without complaints from the catering department, but that's not going to be very often.

So if I go for a 100% of the foretriangle, we will be down to about 42sq metres.

What difference will it make to performance, particularly close hauled?

As we have a mast head rig, does a smaller sail always need to go the full height of the luff, ie up to the top?

In poking around on Google, I found This Site which gives some useful info on sail sizes for all different boats - shame its American and misses out a lot of European models though.
 
If you´re going that small, why not fit a self tacker? You´ll lose out in the light stuff and the traveller tends to scythe across the foredeck catching out the unwary. Otherwise they´re useful bits of kit.

Talk to Sanders Sails.
 
A full-hoist, non-overlapping headsail is very efficient and effective to windward provided there is a reasonable amount of wind - Force 3 and above. Below that you may feel under powered to windward and you will certainly feel under powered with the wind free until it picks up to Force 5.

For windward performance luff length is the key factor so a full height sail is essential. You may also want to consider fitting second set of genoa tracks slightly further inboard and forward of the current tracks because you will be able to close the angle of attack with a non-overlapping sail and also want to be able to haul down on the leech by moving the sheeting position well forward in order to close the leech in light to moderate conditions.

If it was me in your situation I would only consider a non-overlapping sail if I was also considering making it self-tacking. Otherwise I would suggest a sail of 110 to 115 per cent overlap. This will improve the power of the slot and give a crucial bit more area off the wind.
 
JJ is absolutely right with his technical details, but does not quite answer your question about actual sail areas for ease of handling.
I have a library of books on sailing yet none addresses your particular problem, which surprises me a little. The nearest is in Steve Sleight's Complete Sailing Manual where he describes having a row of reef points fitted to a full sized genoa so that you can reduce your sail area whenever you feel the need. This allows you to have the full size for light winds, and then you reef down when it becomes more difficult for you to handle the sail.
I have sailed with reefed foresails on big yachts (70 feet plus) and found it effective, but I am not sure how it would work in a smaller yacht. It ought to in theory, but you would need to speak to an experienced sailmaker as well as a naval architect or yacht designer first.
I have never enjoyed roller headsails because they are usually made of one weight of sailcloth which is either too heavy for the full size or too light when furled to a small size. I think that this might also apply to a reefed foresail.
 
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I have sailed with reefed foresails on big yachts (70 feet plus) and found it effective, but I am not sure how it would work in a smaller yacht.

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I had a reefing working jib on my Sonata. It turned the sail into a heavy weather (No 4 size) jib which set well and could give a lot of power in strong winds for a Sonata (Force 5 and above). In practice I seldom used the reef because it was a tricky business working on the foredeck in those sorts of winds and you needed to rig a spare sheet. The tack reef cringle simply hooked the other bull's horn on the stem. A long sail tie laced up the bunt of the foot quite well.

The Sonata was so easily driven I tended to drop the main altogether in more than 20 knots and never faced more than 30.
 
thanks for all the comments - I only suggested 100% but its now obvious circa 110%ish is more effective.

Self tacking system didnt cross my mind but I dont fancy the amount of re-engineering required.

Also having looked around many marinas, self tacking systems seem to be few and far between which suggests that they're not great, unless one really is short-handed or under-strength in the cockpit.
 
I would go for it. When we had a Tempest we had a 110% full height sail and in 12 knots of wind or more, it was as good and more comfortable than the 150%. Often kept it on the furler in a windy season The speed difference was not that great and going to Studland / Portsmouth 1/2 hour over the weekend of pleasure sailing is no worry.

If you are racing see what improvement to the handicap you get if only gave a No3. on a windy race it will be worth while /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
I don't blame you for baulking at the cost and complication of installing a self-tacking system, but in fact they are becoming quite popular, particularly on larger cruising boats with performance credentials - the Hanses and Sweden Yachts are cases in point.
 
The normal reefing genoa size will be around 130% so you could drop to perhaps 110%. Very few RR genoas are anything like 150% fully out. You will lose out in light winds, more so maybe off the wind rather than closehauled when the boatspeed will add a bit to the apparent windspeed.

The real culprit however probably isn't the size of the headsail but the size (or lack of it) of the sheet winches. Our genoa is 55sq metres so close to yours yet SWMBO and I (both card carrying bus pass holders) manage it no problem with the standard pair of Lewmar 53 self tailers. Eat more spinach??

Personally I would be very reluctant to lose light wind performance and have to motor more and the perceived option of dragging out the cruising chute/asymetric/drifter will in practice not happen unless you are going any distance.
 
Nick, I also found the 150% genoa on the 44 rather large for use in the Solent (but a cracking sail for reaching and doing distances with). I had an inner forestay on Hana which was barely 6 inches behind the genoa (just enough room for the furled genoa) and I used to use the no 4 heavy jib for medium winds in the solent. I don't see any reason why you couldn't go bigger and get a 100% jib on the inner forestay as well. This sail can be sheeted between the shrouds and the inners to allow you to still point well.

The big advantage is that you still have the big sail for light winds or reaching, when in my experience, high aspect sails really don't work very well. My father has a self-tacking jib and it really doesn't provide any power, further off the wind than a close reach cause it twists off so much. Beam to broad reach and the top half of a self-tacker just flaps in the wind.

Anyway a different idea to consider, that also gives you a heavy wind solution as well.
 
I would agree with 110% if you want an easy life. Our foresail is 110% with a padded luff. 2 years ago we were racing in light winds against some of our sister-ships and although they had some advantage over us, it was not much in cruising terms and we have no plans to move up a size.

I get the idea that you want an easy life (don't we all?) and a smaller headsail will certainly help. As well as a lower sheet load, you will have much less sail to pass across when tacking and the chance to set a better shaped sail when the wind pipes up. We can take a few turns in our jib and have a sail which pulls us well to windward in a F6, helped by its laminate shape.
 
Richard, thanks, I think you are right about the temp inner forestay. We have a heavy duty eye already in situ, but when I tested the storm jib on a spare wire halyard, it was impossible to get sufficient tension.

So I think an inner forestay allows plenty more options, in terms of setting different sails according to conditions. Will only need a new 110% jib, in addition to having the inner stay rigged, at this stage. Downside is, of course, it wont be a furler.
 
Is it just me who changes the headsail on the furler depending one conditions and also has an inner forestay for the No3 No4 and working jib.

Has sending SWMBO and Kind to the foredeck gone out of fashion. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 
I sailed on a cruising boat that had a self-tacking jib and a genoa. When it looked like light airs the jib would be replaced in the furler by the genny, often in the comfort of the marina.

I thought it was a very good compromise between having separate headsails for efficiency and the convenience of a furler.
 
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I would remind Karen that the winch load is less than on Moondance and enroll her in the local Gym
its working for Diane


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Reply really to Nick but prompted by your comment!

Why are the ladies doing the winching anyway in a 2 handed crew? Our procedure is that SWMBO does the winching only in light airs, otherwise she takes the wheel and I do the grinding. In either case, careful helming and coordinated and quick action on the sheets means that 90% of the sail is 'in' under no load much at all.

Lateral thinking saves new sail and releases more beer money.
 
quite right Robin. the Moondancing man is merely being a chauvanist.

I tend the do the heavy duties, and she the lighter ones. This is often helped by the use of the Tack facility on the Autohelm which shouldn't be overlooked. It doesnt always set you on the correct intended course but is close enough for our boat, for a few seconds anyway, until I get into the fine tuning.
 
Sorry Nick I got the spelling wrong, didn't to insult you..
Unreserved apology etc.....

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Fit larger winches !!!!

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It should have been
"larger wEnches"
/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Cheers Bob E..
 
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