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  1. #21
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    7,610

    Default Re: Handicap systems

    Quote Originally Posted by Racecruiser View Post
    You've made me consult my IRC Yearbook 2017 and page 34 has a table Acceptable Sources of Data for weight and other factors covering Endorsed and Standard certificates. May be useful for anyone interested also FAQs on Page 35.

    And here's a link to the yearbook: http://content.yudu.com/web/fiqy/0A2...rces/index.htm

    As others have been saying getting an IRC Rating doesn't have to be difficult or unduly expensive.
    Yes, sorry I missed the bit about it being an established production design. Obviously if it's a new design or a one off it's going to need to be weighed to get an endorsed rating.

    The good news is that weighing almost always results in a rating reduction.
    You never know, I might be right!

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    7,610

    Default Re: Handicap systems

    Quote Originally Posted by Triassic View Post
    There's never going to be the perfect solution to ratings when it comes to mixed fleets, or even very similar designs for that matter, unless it is based on the known performance of that particular vessel and even that can vary according to conditions.
    I disagree with that. When IRC rates similar sized, similar type (i.e non planing or planing) boats it gets it pretty right in my experience. Especially when the boats have optimised towards things that IRC is known to like.
    You never know, I might be right!

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Location
    SE UK
    Posts
    1,116

    Default Re: Handicap systems

    Quote Originally Posted by flaming View Post
    I disagree with that.
    I'll bow to your superior knowledge and experience around monohulls. Obviously it's going to be a whole lot easier to sail a slow boat closer to it's maximum performance than it would be with a fast boat.......so subtle differences between them are going to be less important in the overall measurement.

  4. #24
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    27,039

    Default Re: Handicap systems

    Quote Originally Posted by flaming View Post
    I disagree with that. When IRC rates similar sized, similar type (i.e non planing or planing) boats it gets it pretty right in my experience. Especially when the boats have optimised towards things that IRC is known to like.
    'Things IRC is known to like'
    e.g. non-overlapping jibs.

    This is just an elaborate way of saying IRC doesn't rate big genoas accurately.

    i think we get away with IRC in yachts because the performance variation from one design to another is quite small in relation to the effects of good sailing and particularly good tactics. All IRC yachts are pretty similar in concept. compared with dinghies, where we are trying to get equitable racing between e.g. singlehanders and boats with asymetrics.

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    swansea
    Posts
    9,259

    Default Re: Handicap systems

    Quote Originally Posted by flaming View Post
    I disagree with that. When IRC rates similar sized, similar type (i.e non planing or planing) boats it gets it pretty right in my experience. Especially when the boats have optimised towards things that IRC is known to like.
    Of course it does. The nearer identical the boats are , the more accurate handicaps become until you get eventually to one designs. But herein ius the problem. Whilst keen racer fleets have lots of similar boats, when you get to family casual racing you get a much wider range. For example a few years ago we had a fleet which ranged from a 44ftm Gibsea to a Folkboat and with PY handicaps from849 to 1220. Couple that with heavy Bristol Channel tides and no handicap system could cope. We split the fleet into two ( fast and slow) and got better results but it was in truth a lottery for individual races.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triassic View Post
    I guess the point that I am trying to make is for a club racing scene to be effective the race officer needs to be able to tweak individual ratings to reflect the complete package and how it performs in the real world rather than just what it says in theory.
    As far as our long time race officer was concerned the big advantage of NHC was the absence of any Race Officer discretion with handicaps and therefore a lot less bickering and argument.

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Location
    SE UK
    Posts
    1,116

    Default Re: Handicap systems

    Quote Originally Posted by wotayottie View Post
    As far as our long time race officer was concerned the big advantage of NHC was the absence of any Race Officer discretion with handicaps and therefore a lot less bickering and argument.
    This is club racing we're talking about right, you know the kind that's supposed to be fun where winning isn't that important as long as you feel you've had a fair race? If one particular boat, or make of boat, always seems to clean up because they just happen to have a particularly favourable rating then everyone else either needs to accept they're racing for the placings....or go out and change their boat. I don't see the fun in that. We regularly have pursuit races, you know the ones where we chase each other around the course and whoever is in front at the end of two hours wins, and they involve a considerable spread of boat performance (I start an hour and ten minutes after the first boat) yet we often get finishes with boats literally yards apart. That for me is fun and all credit to the race officer for arranging it that way. If someone new arrives on the scene they get a guesstimated start time and then it gets tweaked depending on their results, i.e. if they win a lot their start time is put back, the opposite if they are always at the back. How can you possibly argue with that?

  7. #27
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    27,039

    Default Re: Handicap systems

    The only sane way to race under NHC is to realise the ratings are a complete joke and just enjoy the race on the water.
    We have our own goals and metrics for whether we've done well.
    If I ever get serious about short course leadmine racing again, I'll buy a one-design, probably something like a 3 man open keelboat.

    The PY system for dinghies seems to be falling apart, we quite often don't even look at the results. We're only really interested in how we've done against identical or very similar boats. If the course and windstrength favours us, we are quite likely to win. But so what? Over the series, we're struggling to sail to our number, but that could be the other sailors being pretty good and knowing the local wind a bit better.
    We're not there to win, we are there to enjoy, learn and improve, as well as the social aspect, which is great.

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    7,610

    Default Re: Handicap systems

    Quote Originally Posted by wotayottie View Post
    Of course it does. The nearer identical the boats are , the more accurate handicaps become until you get eventually to one designs. But herein ius the problem. Whilst keen racer fleets have lots of similar boats, when you get to family casual racing you get a much wider range. For example a few years ago we had a fleet which ranged from a 44ftm Gibsea to a Folkboat and with PY handicaps from849 to 1220. Couple that with heavy Bristol Channel tides and no handicap system could cope. We split the fleet into two ( fast and slow) and got better results but it was in truth a lottery for individual races.
    I'd also say it's pretty good at rating a fairly wide range of non planing boats. It really is just where planing comes in for some of the fleet some of the time that IRC struggles. And tides make a massive, massive difference. Far more than anything else amongst differently rated boats. Small rating splits are really the only way to cope with that. It really annoys me that at some events we go to the race officer is hung up on having big classes, so you have 2 classes covering everything from a Ker 40 at 1.200 to a folkboat at 0.850. Yes, there might be 20 boats in our class but I'm only racing half of them on the results sheet, not on the water.
    The best racing under IRC is done when the slpits are an absolute max of 0.050. Ideally less.
    You never know, I might be right!

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